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Post by topaxygourouni on Dec 1, 2019 18:48:19 GMT
For the record, I do agree with kurtangel that a Trygon Prime is probably not going to be a competitive choice. Its expensive-ish, with a D6 weapon with no minimum 3 - when you need it to swing high, its going to swing low, and leave you cursing. My WK gameplan has the same issue, hence why it sinks all 4 shots into the same target, or takes a Fateful Divergence with him. Deepstrike charges are STILL problematic - GSC players will know this. While not all flanks are covered, often the IMPORTANT flank is, and without being able to close in on the right target on the DS drop, most melee centric DS Drop strategies die in the water. We'll still need to figure out how to fix that or survive it, hence I believe that a Trygon Prime drop will never be the primary thing. There are better, cheaper, more effective things we can drop, I feel. Imma play the (please do not swear) out of it. Either behemoth, or custom 6" pile in and +1 to hit on charge. I'll give it the physiology too. There's your minimum 2 damage, and there is your str 8 too. Hell, a haruspex with oversized manhood going in , hitting on 3+ rerolling everything will cleave through anything it touches. A fracking haruspex for crying out loud. And even if the important flank is covered, so what? That was not all my army you know, that was like 370 pts for the toxicrene or 400 for the haruspex version. The rest 1600 of my army is still there to ruin your day. |
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 1, 2019 18:52:53 GMT
It's unmodified 5s, so never any better than a 5+ for those mortal wounds. I dont think the T-gon Prime needs it though. Assuming you pop the MWW on him, it's 6A(or 7?) of S8, 3+ to hit, -4ap and 4D. Assuming all hit and all wounds (very ambitious but easy to calc), and no invul, you're looking at 5-6 x 4 = 20-24W. As Behemoth, you can actually stack the +1W and the special Scytal relic on it, for base wound on 2+ (you're basically trading reroll wound for +1 wound so you could use reroll wound on someone else), with 1 extra A wounding on 3+. If you got a Flyrant in there as part of the charge, job's done. The Kraken Triple Flyrant is actually really good now, because all 3 Flyrants actually have a decent chance of making it in. Previously we were looking at like 40% or sub 40% chances to make that charge, with the new spell, Hive Pack, and Hive Instinct strategem, triple Flyrant charges have a huge chance of actually making it in. Problems on a big tank target like Knights and Vehicles that need a little more creative charging to secure, or that Adrenal Gland relic. Behemoth's got the same without the spell, being really good for diffused charging (kinda like GSC FAE vs PA arguments.) and making drop pod monsters really good. I mean, I'm legit afraid of a Toxicrene out of a pod charge with a 3d6 reroll charge drop, stopping frickin Repulsors from getting away on a 3+. I was thinking if we're just as afraid of a Toxi + Mally pod charge, but I'm really undecided about the Mally. Then you get a unit of Genestealers/Hormagants sent up by the Swarmlord just gunking up the board and saying AW YEA -1 TO HIT FOR EEEEEEVERYBODIEEEEEE! There's really a lot of good stuff here. I'm a little sad that the most prevalent best stuff I saw out of Custom Fleet (a lot of the combos I envisaged wanted Successor Chapter status, so we could get parent fleet spells and strategems) is basically a massive regen Psyker detachment with great casting security and the ability to regen stray wounds every turn for free. Without the ability to take the spells and strategems of the parent fleets, the Custom Fleet doesnt really offer enough to pull people off of the original few, other than for a specific Hormagant/ScyTal based build. There's also this really fringe All Fliers build which can use the Fly -1 to hit and +1 to Hit on charges. Goonhammer mentions the Carnifex Shooting list and how the new Fleet Traits are supposedly good for it - I guess having 1 free reroll for the HVC would help. I wish it was proper Master Artisans though, even if it was in Synapse locked. One thing I like the direction of is that a few of the new buffs are directly tied to SYNAPSE units, which is how I feel this codex should be represented. SYNAPSE as a keyword should be important, and should give big buffs to the whole unit, rather than just 1 unit. Some of the examples were really good hits in the right direction, IMO. Not all, but some. Im still wrapping my head around this. Im sure people will find some interesting wombo-combos, but nothing really jumps our to me screaming "USE THIS NOW!". People give examples of 2+ warriors ignoring AP -2 & while it s all fine and dandy... Warriors dont really have output & will still get mulched in CC. The Carnifex list Goonhammer mentioned looks reasonable, but you dont need to kill the fexes - Just bad touch them ya know...  For me, the screaming USE THIS NOW are as follows (gonna add it as a footnote in my thread tomorrow I think): 1. Exocrene in Kronos, podded in, with the 5++ Adaptive, and the new Kronos Spell. IIRC it's T8, meaning it's ridiculous to shift with a 5++ 5+++ Wx2 Damage Table. You should get two turns of shooting, assuming it doesnt get tied up by a random SmashCap. 2. Hive Guard in Jormungandr, Raveners in via Jorg Strategem, Onslaught spell, with the new Jormungandr spell (I think this is better vs Kronos spell - reason being full rerolls to hit is better than additional hits on a 6+ on volume of fire, although if you're expecting your HG to be safe and shoot freely for 5 turns, Kronos would definitely give you more benefit by game end). Free Guide on our Dark Reaper equivalent? Goodbye Eliminators. Tack on +2 Cover Save Adaptive for tankability, and being in Tunnels = it's safe T1 from bloody Fliers. 3. Triple Kraken Flyrant, dropped in, using either the Adrenal Gland Relic to initiate, or using the Pack Hunter strategem to initiate, then following up with Hive Instinct strategem. Flyrant's main issues were always individually being not strong enough to deal significant damage to a target (they were really good for supporting or chip damage, assuming they survived - which they did until a Cassie popped its head in). With the new Kraken spell, Adrenal Glands, and the new strategems, Triple Flyrants making the charge is actually extremely reliable, and with all 3 of them in combat, they will definitely wreck whatever it is you need wrecked (other than Knights - which you will wreck with the HG assisted shooting). 4. Deathleaper/Flyrants + Toxicrene combo. Same as above, but with DL to deny Overwatch. I'm toying with the idea of giving DL Synapse, so that he could 1: annoy the living hell out of some people as Kronos (strategem), 2: deny Overwatch with the new strategem and tank in combat, 3: serve as the lead charger for the rest of his Hive Fleet, and 4: Be a Character and HIDE, if we kill the combat and he leaves combat. |
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Post by purestrain on Dec 1, 2019 18:55:16 GMT
A trygon prime in a vacuum alone,no. But a trygon prime bringing along some warriors or devilgants, a pod bringing down a toxicrene or a haruspex ready to charge with 3d6 and rerolls, a mawloc to push an unnatural amount of mw for its points, exocrines to move + shoot with exploding 5's and 6's and no penalties, flyrants with 26" devourers, and quite possibly next to a bunch of slingshotted stealers? New nids bask in plurality and having too many fronts for an opponent to account for everything. If you can't see that, then maybe you are not that omnipotent in Tyranids as you try to claim. And get shot off the board by Centurions? Of the things you said the only thing worths a try are Toxicrene in a Pod for the melee locking stratagems, Exocrine with shooting bufs and Flyrant with Relic + MW Physiology, others are lacking in every department EVEN with the buffs given by Blood of Baal X gets shot by Y because every single person ever only runs the things you ever say they do. I can see how these things go with you lol. |
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 1, 2019 19:07:38 GMT
For the record, I do agree with kurtangel that a Trygon Prime is probably not going to be a competitive choice. Its expensive-ish, with a D6 weapon with no minimum 3 - when you need it to swing high, its going to swing low, and leave you cursing. My WK gameplan has the same issue, hence why it sinks all 4 shots into the same target, or takes a Fateful Divergence with him. Deepstrike charges are STILL problematic - GSC players will know this. While not all flanks are covered, often the IMPORTANT flank is, and without being able to close in on the right target on the DS drop, most melee centric DS Drop strategies die in the water. We'll still need to figure out how to fix that or survive it, hence I believe that a Trygon Prime drop will never be the primary thing. There are better, cheaper, more effective things we can drop, I feel. Imma play the (please do not swear) out of it. Either behemoth, or custom 6" pile in and +1 to hit on charge. I'll give it the physiology too. There's your minimum 2 damage, and there is your str 8 too. Hell, a haruspex with oversized manhood going in , hitting on 3+ rerolling everything will cleave through anything it touches. A fracking haruspex for crying out loud. And even if the important flank is covered, so what? That was not all my army you know, that was like 370 pts for the toxicrene or 400 for the haruspex version. The rest 1600 of my army is still there to ruin your day. Yea, an unimportant flank is usually like 200 points or less, so I dunno what you're trying to prove. 370pts for the Toxicrene is what... Tcyte + Toxi? (I'm just assming, no idea new points. I think its less). You're taking a unit with a 9" rerollable charge (which is less than 40% chance of success), and I sometimes have issues with 7" rerollables on my GSC. I mean you can just assume it'll pass, until it doesnt and your tourney run goes 4-1 or 1-4. Assuming you took a Trygon Prime and use him to lead - let's make the assumption you succeed on the charge, and you then charge with the Toxi and also make it. I assume you dont make a mistake, so the unit is alive and next turn he'll get stuck in combat. This is assuming you're BEHEMOTH, and not the CUSTOM fleet which is a non-starter discussion in the first place. Assuming nothing else in the army is dead on both sides, his 1800 points is now vs your 1600 points. I hope he didnt burn a hole through your army, and doesnt have the movement to outrun a Toxi and Trygon, both of which move like 6" or 7"? And if you ran to get into range, let's hope they fail the deny on Onslaught. Oh wait It's Tiggy / Eldrad, guess that deny's going through.... (and etc other situations like this). I mean, I play GSC as a main faction/army, and I like their playstyle the most. I'm not trying to be mean, I'm not saying it's a lost cause, I'm just saying we have to actually solve the issue, which we can. I dont know why you feel the need to justify against my opinion on that. If it's about the TGon Prime, I dont think any amount of "Imma play the (please do not swear) out of it" is going to make it a top competitive choice, there are just better options available to us (ie a Flyrant, OOE, SL). If the Trygon Prime was T8, I think this would be a very different discussion, because the 5++ has some actual meaning and even without it, the potential damage boost has enough chance to survive more than a turn. At T6 3+? It's not staying around very long... And that makes me as sad as anyone else, because I have 3 magnetized and another 2 more in boxes. |
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Post by purestrain on Dec 1, 2019 19:10:58 GMT
Toxicrene and Tyrgon move 8 and 9 inches respectively
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Post by kurtangle2 on Dec 1, 2019 19:15:35 GMT
Toxicrene and Tyrgon move 8 and 9 inches respectively Which is futile in a deepstrike environment (and also useless when fielded on board because they get shot off easily). Tyr deepstrike can only work for shooting units, melee deepstrike is 100% a thing of GSC |
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Post by gigasnail on Dec 1, 2019 19:19:48 GMT
What do you think about a build-a-bear hive fleet with Feeding Frenzy (6" pile-in trait) and Hypermetabolic Acceleration (reroll Advance roll) stealer/ravenor/hormagant rush as an alternative to Kraken? We loose the kraken strats but the advance roll is probably close/equivalent to the 3d6 advance. Loose the Kraken fade and charge trait but stealers and raveners gain the 6" bad touch.
I haven't really had the need to bounce out of combat and charge something else really come up (seriously), what I have often wanted was better reach out and touch you range.
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Post by kurtangle2 on Dec 1, 2019 19:24:41 GMT
What do you think about a build-a-bear hive fleet with Feeding Frenzy (6" pile-in trait) and Hypermetabolic Acceleration (reroll Advance roll) stealer/ravenor/hormagant rush as an alternative to Kraken? We loose the kraken strats but the advance roll is probably close/equivalent to the 3d6 advance. Loose the Kraken fade and charge trait but stealers and raveners gain the 6" bad touch. I haven't really had the need to bounce out of combat and charge something else really come up (seriously), what I have often wanted was better reach out and touch you range. It's perhaps better to go Kraken and give one/two of them the 2D6" consolidation to get the best of both worlds |
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Post by gigasnail on Dec 1, 2019 19:30:07 GMT
I'm still ambivalent on the adaptations on infantry units man. Stealers are already a huge threat and draw entirely appropriate levels of fire. Stealers with added buffs are just waving a huge KICK ME sign. I dunno.
I guess I could go all in on it, and do reroll advance trait, take pack hunters for the -1AP on melee attacks if you outnumber a unit trait, and then do 2d6" consolidate on two units of my pick of stealers/raveners.
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 1, 2019 19:30:48 GMT
What do you think about a build-a-bear hive fleet with Feeding Frenzy (6" pile-in trait) and Hypermetabolic Acceleration (reroll Advance roll) stealer/ravenor/hormagant rush as an alternative to Kraken? We loose the kraken strats but the advance roll is probably close/equivalent to the 3d6 advance. Loose the Kraken fade and charge trait but stealers and raveners gain the 6" bad touch. I haven't really had the need to bounce out of combat and charge something else really come up (seriously), what I have often wanted was better reach out and touch you range. Personal experience says that Fade and Charge > 6" Bad Touch. Often my Genestealers would survive combat with like 8 or 5 guys left, stuck in combat with something that punches them really hard and that I dont really want to continue being in combat with. I use the Fade and Charge to get them out of there, and gang up on something else nearby while my fresh units come in to take the heat off. 6" Bad Touch is kind of helpful, because if you set up the pre-charge right, you pile-in in a huge concentric semi-circle to touch something else nearby. But usually today, since if you touch them in your "Fight Again" stage, they can still hit you, you're basically inviting a tonne of damage on those stealers before their turn. Now, the difference is that when I do it, I try to block movement or to drag people away from a point to deal with the Stealers, so I dont necessarily want them spread all over. With careful placement of 20 models, I always get the positioning I want anyway. I've never once felt like "damnit, I wish I had 6" pile in right now to deal with this", but I've often felt "godamnit why cant GSC Fall Back and Charge like Kraken, that would make things so much easier". This is just personal experience, no idea how's yours like. But yea, the flexibility of Run and Charge and Fade and Charge is so huge, it's ridiculous. Have you tried dealing with a WS army? I cant even outrun Centurions with an Eldar army. |
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Post by kurtangle2 on Dec 1, 2019 19:32:48 GMT
I'm still ambivalent on the adaptations on infantry units man. Stealers are already a huge threat and draw entirely appropriate levels of fire. Stealers with added buffs are just waving a huge KICK ME sign. I dunno. I guess I could go all in on it, and do reroll advance trait, take pack hunters for the -1AP on melee attacks if you outnumber a unit trait, and then do 2d6" consolidate on two units of my pick of stealers/raveners. I don't like Physiologies on infantry units too, they seem quite niche and not really applicable to our competitive units in most cases. Thanksfully they got them right with Monsters which is something I wasn't even expecting. |
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Post by mule on Dec 1, 2019 19:33:38 GMT
What do you think about a build-a-bear hive fleet with Feeding Frenzy (6" pile-in trait) and Hypermetabolic Acceleration (reroll Advance roll) stealer/ravenor/hormagant rush as an alternative to Kraken? We loose the kraken strats but the advance roll is probably close/equivalent to the 3d6 advance. Loose the Kraken fade and charge trait but stealers and raveners gain the 6" bad touch. I haven't really had the need to bounce out of combat and charge something else really come up (seriously), what I have often wanted was better reach out and touch you range. My current hot take is keep genestealers off the board and deepstrike them turn 3 after you dumped your exocrines turn 2 and 3, have them be a vaccume cleaner unit. |
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Post by gigasnail on Dec 1, 2019 19:33:58 GMT
@kaze No, I haven't had the pleasure. Haven't been back long enough!
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Post by gigasnail on Dec 1, 2019 19:35:42 GMT
What do you think about a build-a-bear hive fleet with Feeding Frenzy (6" pile-in trait) and Hypermetabolic Acceleration (reroll Advance roll) stealer/ravenor/hormagant rush as an alternative to Kraken? We loose the kraken strats but the advance roll is probably close/equivalent to the 3d6 advance. Loose the Kraken fade and charge trait but stealers and raveners gain the 6" bad touch. I haven't really had the need to bounce out of combat and charge something else really come up (seriously), what I have often wanted was better reach out and touch you range. My current hot take is keep genestealers off the board and deepstrike them turn 3 after you dumped your exocrines turn 2 and 3, have them be a vaccume cleaner unit. Jorm taxi or rely on nodes? Hell pods are an option again. |
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Post by mule on Dec 1, 2019 19:51:40 GMT
What do you think about a build-a-bear hive fleet with Feeding Frenzy (6" pile-in trait) and Hypermetabolic Acceleration (reroll Advance roll) stealer/ravenor/hormagant rush as an alternative to Kraken? We loose the kraken strats but the advance roll is probably close/equivalent to the 3d6 advance. Loose the Kraken fade and charge trait but stealers and raveners gain the 6" bad touch. I haven't really had the need to bounce out of combat and charge something else really come up (seriously), what I have often wanted was better reach out and touch you range. Personal experience says that Fade and Charge > 6" Bad Touch. Often my Genestealers would survive combat with like 8 or 5 guys left, stuck in combat with something that punches them really hard and that I dont really want to continue being in combat with. I use the Fade and Charge to get them out of there, and gang up on something else nearby while my fresh units come in to take the heat off. 6" Bad Touch is kind of helpful, because if you set up the pre-charge right, you pile-in in a huge concentric semi-circle to touch something else nearby. But usually today, since if you touch them in your "Fight Again" stage, they can still hit you, you're basically inviting a tonne of damage on those stealers before their turn. Now, the difference is that when I do it, I try to block movement or to drag people away from a point to deal with the Stealers, so I dont necessarily want them spread all over. With careful placement of 20 models, I always get the positioning I want anyway. I've never once felt like "damnit, I wish I had 6" pile in right now to deal with this", but I've often felt "godamnit why cant GSC Fall Back and Charge like Kraken, that would make things so much easier". This is just personal experience, no idea how's yours like. But yea, the flexibility of Run and Charge and Fade and Charge is so huge, it's ridiculous. Have you tried dealing with a WS army? I cant even outrun Centurions with an Eldar army. Whitescars is my next army. Theyre basically nids in power armor. |
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