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Post by dandc on Nov 26, 2019 13:34:06 GMT
If imperial armies could have no primaris, and chaos could have nothing Daemonic, whose mini marines are better? I'm guessing the answer is IH/IF, but I could be wrong. The only marines I play against regularly are Thousand Sons, BA, Salamanders and IF, so I don't have much of a sample size.
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Post by LordPathos on Nov 26, 2019 13:48:55 GMT
Dandc: if marine armies cant take primaris
Bias me: Oh Grey Knights, obviously!
Dandc: chaos cant take anything daemonic.
Me: Oooooh, you did that on purpose...
Real answer: Death Guard?
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Post by No One on Nov 26, 2019 13:55:31 GMT
SM, hands down. No primaris still leaves cents, still leaves IH fliers/dreads. Still have thunderfires/smash caps etc, and at worst tacs are better CSM (for cheaper I'm pretty sure). All of which are viable lists pretty much in and of themselves: some lists don't work, most lists lose some tools (e.g. eliminators, infiltrators), but they're still good lists. Chaos...I can't think of any Chaos list that doesn't rely on daemons or daemon engines in some form.
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Post by kazetanade on Nov 27, 2019 2:20:04 GMT
Best mini marine, no primaris/daemons/vehicles?
I think its RG or WS.
WS is fast as hell, making even Centurions a threat in your back line when normally you just run circles around them.
RG is extremely difficult to shift, and don't rely on heavy weapons for their Mainstay ability and strategy.
Mini marines are basically Bikes, Tacs, Scouts, Devs, so things that make them mobile or difficult to break is the difference maker.
DG is a really good contender though.
If we include vehicles, the best is IH hands down.
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Post by dandc on Nov 28, 2019 20:41:10 GMT
Best mini marine, no primaris/daemons/vehicles? I think its RG or WS. WS is fast as hell, making even Centurions a threat in your back line when normally you just run circles around them. RG is extremely difficult to shift, and don't rely on heavy weapons for their Mainstay ability and strategy. Mini marines are basically Bikes, Tacs, Scouts, Devs, so things that make them mobile or difficult to break is the difference maker. DG is a really good contender though. If we include vehicles, the best is IH hands down. Do you think that's true of IH even with the non-primaris vehicles? |
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Post by No One on Nov 29, 2019 0:44:44 GMT
To an extent: the primaris vehicles make their lists better, but there's still plenty of nasty stuff in the form of fliers, untargetable dreads (1 with strat, 1 chaplain dread), almost unkillable dreads. Chuck in some thunderfires and you've got a decent list: lacking on ground game having to take tac or scouts instead of intercessors, but still, very strong: definitely stronger than CSM without daemons/daemon engines. Personally, I'm not convinced that IH are the best compared to cents: List that won a 60 man tournament here last weekend: **Raven Scars**: Long-range Marksmen, Raven Guard Successor, Stealthy
HQ
Chapter Master [6 PL, 143pts]: Jump Pack, Thunderhammer, Storm shield, Stratagem: Chapter Master, Master-Crafted, Hero of the Chapter, Imperium's Sword
Lieutenants [6 PL, 83pts]: Chainsword, Power Axe, Jump Pack
Troops
Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. 4x Scout w/Bolt Pistol, Combat knife
Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. 4x Scout w/Bolt Pistol, Combat knife
Scout Squad [4 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. 4x Scout w/Bolt Pistol, Combat knife
Elites
Centurion Assault Squad [16 PL, 260pts]
. Centurion: Hurricane bolter, 2x Flamer
. Centurion: Hurricane bolter, 2x Flamer
. Centurion: Hurricane bolter, 2x Flamer
. Centurion: Hurricane bolter, 2x Flamer
. Centurion Sergeant: Hurricane bolter, 2x Flamer
Centurion Assault Squad [16 PL, 312pts]
. Centurion: Hurricane bolter, 2x Flamer
. Centurion: Hurricane bolter, 2x Flamer
. Centurion: Hurricane bolter, 2x Flamer
. Centurion: Hurricane bolter, 2x Flamer
. Centurion: Hurricane bolter, 2x Flamer
. Centurion Sergeant: Hurricane bolter, 2x Flamer
Heavy Support
Centurion Devastator Squad [24 PL, 420pts]
. Centurion: Grav-cannon and grav-amp, Hurricane bolter
. Centurion: Grav-cannon and grav-amp, Hurricane bolter
. Centurion: Grav-cannon and grav-amp, Hurricane bolter
. Centurion: Grav-cannon and grav-amp, Hurricane bolter
. Centurion: Grav-cannon and grav-amp, Hurricane bolter
. Centurion Sergeant: Grav-cannon and grav-amp, Hurricane bolter
Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [29 PL, 617pts]
**Imperial Fists**
HQ
Captain [5 PL, 86pts]: Storm Shield, Storm Bolter Warlord: Hand Of Dorn, Eye of Hypnoth
Heavy Support
Thunderfire Cannon [4 PL, 92pts]
. Techmarine Gunner: Servo-harness: Flamer, Plasma cutter
Thunderfire Cannon [4 PL, 92pts]
. Techmarine Gunner: Servo-harness: Flamer, Plasma cutter
Thunderfire Cannon [4 PL, 92pts]
. Techmarine Gunner: Servo-harness: Flamer, Plasma cutter
Whirlwind [4PL, 85pts]
.Whirlwind Vengeance Launcher
Whirlwind [4PL, 85pts]
.Whirlwind Vengeance Launcher
Whirlwind [4PL, 85pts]
.Whirlwind Vengeance Launcher
Total: [109 PL, 2,000pts] Note the lack of any primaris at all. |
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Post by mattblowers on Jan 3, 2020 19:08:25 GMT
Death Guard. 'Cuz they can take cheap troops in cultists and pox walkers. Of course I'm thinking of this in a vacuum because when you say without primaris I'm thinking pre-8th edition and all the things they didn't have.
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Post by mattblowers on Jan 3, 2020 19:13:20 GMT
Personally, I'm not convinced that IH are the best compared to cents: List that won a 60 man tournament here last weekend: Note the lack of any primaris at all. That's a nasty list for sure. It's starting to fall our of favor a bit in my area. People generally are running only 1 unit of assault centurions. But, IH is better if you take a more shooting list. Those 3 box-flyers are crazy good with +2 AP on everything. Nanavatti is taking them with primaris intercessors with stalker bolter that all have -3 AP with 2 Damage. It's just plain gross. I'm not sure we've seen the best SM list. |
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Post by No One on Jan 4, 2020 0:42:37 GMT
But, IH is better if you take a more shooting list. Those 3 box-flyers are crazy good with +2 AP on everything. Nanavatti is taking them with primaris intercessors with stalker bolter that all have -3 AP with 2 Damage. It's just plain gross. I'm not sure we've seen the best SM list. This was in the context of the OP. Because while IH can still take the fliers, they can't take elims/intercessors/repulsors, and I'm not sure the ground game (or firepower depending on direction) would be there without the primaris stuff. Unlike cents, who lose very little. Scouts are still great objective pressure, you lose primaris options for intercessors/elims etc, but those don't compare with losing anything daemonic in CSM. I honestly have no idea why you think DG could compete: a 6 man infiltrating assault cent squad could basically pick up 3 full units of cultists with morale. Similarly with IH fliers. I just don't think DG have anything to play for: poxwalker spam with Typhus gets more durability, but it's got no bite and I don't think there's any way it doesn't get shot off the table and just kept in deployment from TFC. |
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Post by gigasnail on Jan 4, 2020 0:43:39 GMT
Death Guard. 'Cuz they can take cheap troops in cultists and pox walkers. Of course I'm thinking of this in a vacuum because when you say without primaris I'm thinking pre-8th edition and all the things they didn't have. But...you dont take the actual plague marines because they cost too damn much. |
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Post by mattblowers on Jan 4, 2020 9:24:54 GMT
Death Guard. 'Cuz they can take cheap troops in cultists and pox walkers. Of course I'm thinking of this in a vacuum because when you say without primaris I'm thinking pre-8th edition and all the things they didn't have. But...you dont take the actual plague marines because they cost too damn much. Exactly. Other than cost they are good. But I do understand that this game isn’t played in a vacuum. No One. This is a thought exercise: ie not reality. In a vacuum I think DG the best of the lot. Most of the stuff you mention is only good since the new codex. I stated that when I think of pre-primaris I think of pre 8th edition. Even in early 8th plaguecrawler/poxwalker/Monty spam was a thing. Does it stand up under scrutiny? Probably not, but non daemonic chaos and non-Primaris SM aren’t a thing. It’s like arguing which fish is fastest on land, or which mammal is fastest sans gravity. |
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Post by dandc on Feb 24, 2020 11:29:58 GMT
Interesting that Chaos has the most votes but SM have it in the comments!
If you do let Chaos have some daemons, are their mini marines useful? Been trying to find some good tournament lists that actually use CSM troops rather than just cultists.
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Post by No One on Feb 24, 2020 11:52:13 GMT
Bog standard CSM troops? Nope. They get used for Red Corsairs for the bonus CP. And...yeah. I don't think there's any reason to take them as an actual unit. Other stuff CSM stuff? Oblits are good. Raptors/warp talons may be good with Night Lords charge buffs. Possessed bomb's a thing. I think that's about it? With new TS stuff, they might have play as something other than Character protected smite bots, but don't know them well enough to comment. Still don't think anything stacks up to marines (outside of Matt's weird situation of pre-8th, but not actually pre 8th because he suggests DG  ). |
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Post by mattblowers on Feb 25, 2020 17:29:59 GMT
(outside of Matt's weird situation of pre-8th, but not actually pre 8th because he suggests DG ). DG = Nurgle and they have been around a loooong time. But yes, still weird. |
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