Black templars better at charging then Behemoth

[originaltyranid]

BT preview lets them reroll one or both charge dice.

Seems to me the design team needs to look at all factions when creating new rules.

All the new space marine rules make the Tyranids look like jokes now.

Compare a tyranid warrior to a primarus marine. or worse the primaris powerfist marines (forgot the name).

Designing in a vacum needs to end.

Games Workshop needs to consider all factions and balance the forces better.

[No One]

They don't design in a vacuum: they also don't balance for the lower end of the curve i.e. where most of the nid Codex has ended up. Like Behemoth, which isn't even balanced internally, let alone externally. So you think BT should be lumped with a bad trait just because we were 2 years ago?

But yes, the SM rules missed the mark a lot on external balance: that's not a 'they're OP compared to poor old nids', that's a 'they're OP compared to everyone bar other SM' thing. Other than that though, they've mostly had things come out at a similar power level to the current meta: Orks and GSC did well when they came out, but weren't dominant. 'Crons were a miss though, and there's been some other fumbles, but they're designing externally and internally for balance.

[gigasnail]

Imagine GW with any over arching plan or design paradigm, or an ounce of competence.

I like to dream, too.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

I think gw has been moving in the direction of charges reroll one or both dice for a while now. If I recall orks got the reroll all or both dice. Honestly, it's a bit simpler and better all around. I think behemoth would have gotten it if the nids codex had dropped this year.

I think gw has been looking at the rules and trying to figure ways to improve or simplify rules for a while. Anyone else notice how newer traits and abilities are just "reroll hits" instead of reroll misses? It's the same idea: simpler and more powerful. I just wish they'd retroactively FAQ existing armies to fix preexisting traits.

[killercroc]

This one really is just having an old as dump codex that was never really good to begin with.

BT aren't the only ones to charge better, you're forgetting Orks. Orks have re-roll charge as one of their 3 base special rules, not to even look at Kultur traits. Lots of things charge better than nids. My 80+ year old Grandmother charges better than nids.

[mule]

Nov 15, 2019 1:28:04 GMT gigasnail said:

Imagine GW with any over arching plan or design paradigm, or an ounce of competence.

I like to dream, too.

Its been pretty good until recently tbh.

[gigasnail]

Depends on your measure of all right I guess. At the start of 8th it looked like they had finally gotten their (please do not swear) together. Time has not been kind to that observation. We're back to the same old (please do not swear): massive balance problems, rules and buff bloat, and a very, very uneven distribution of the toys.

[No One]

I mean, apart from rules bloat (which is totally a thing, but I'd prefer it to having to stay with old stuff/rules the entire time) and ignoring SM (i.e. not recently) they were looking better than ever. Definitely better than start of 8th: Index-hammer wasn't balanced, but CA and stuff like Chaos 2.0 looked like they were going to just be tweaking older stuff to bring it more in line. Which would've been great. And then SM happened. And now PA looks like it's...actually OK balance wise, with SM just being a weird blip that they'll get to...in a year.

I mean, there's definitely issues, power creep's still there and some units aren't even semi-competitively viable, but they've been heading in at least the right general direction for a while now: hopefully SM's just a temporary stagger off the path and not a full drunken stumble onto the street .

[dc0315]

Recently been playing star wars legion, a song of ice and fire and a game or 2 of apoc. All with some form of alternating activation. 40k lacks that and it would bring much needed balance across the board for all factions and a more modern playstyle.

[mattblowers]

Nov 15, 2019 10:16:36 GMT No One said:

I mean, apart from rules bloat (which is totally a thing, but I'd prefer it to having to stay with old stuff/rules the entire time) and ignoring SM (i.e. not recently) they were looking better than ever. Definitely better than start of 8th: Index-hammer wasn't balanced, but CA and stuff like Chaos 2.0 looked like they were going to just be tweaking older stuff to bring it more in line. Which would've been great. And then SM happened. And now PA looks like it's...actually OK balance wise, with SM just being a weird blip that they'll get to...in a year.

I mean, there's definitely issues, power creep's still there and some units aren't even semi-competitively viable, but they've been heading in at least the right general direction for a while now: hopefully SM's just a temporary stagger off the path and not a full drunken stumble onto the street .

I expect more full on drunken stumbling. I disagree on index 40K. I thought index 40K was great until ForgeWorld released their indexes and sent the whole thing into a tailspin. Index 8th 40K was the most fun I've had in warhammer for the better part of a decade. If you banned FW, then it actually was pretty good game.

Right now the bloat is just as bad as it was in 7th, maybe even worse. SM should be strong, it's good for the game, but they have to tone things down a bit. Right now I'm happily playing Bolt Action. I do miss 40K though and will probably try some narrative events coming up in my area. Right now for me competitive 40K is irreparably broken. I don't need to win all my games and I don't compete for the top spots at GTs, but taking sub-optimal choices in your list is a near auto-loose in the current meta. I hate that. For a game to be good you should be able to sprinkle in a flavoring of your choice of the units you like and not have it completely invalidate your whole list.

[mule]

To be fair, BT are even pretty (please do not swear) in this meta from what I've seen. Re-rolls on charges aren't as good as advance + charge. Also, Whitescars already have prevent overwatch, advance + charge. Just paint your whitescars black and then pretend you're playing black templar.

[dranzyl]

I watched a designer commentary recently and what it left me feeling is this. After a certain point of releases gw just doesnt balance codexes between themselves.
Its a matter of complexity, only the most recent codexes are taken into acount when balancing, and with half the codexes being marines (the main faction, which will be updated 3 times in an editions life span, beginning-middle-end) they will always end up grossly outperforming everything. And with the recent speed of releases its just getting more noticeable.
I dont really see a solution to this except the second round of rereleased codexes or the inevitable edition change and reset. I hope we get some workable terrain rules and guide lines before that at least.

[mattblowers]

Nov 15, 2019 15:36:54 GMT dranzyl said:

I dont really see a solution to this except the second round of rereleased codexes or the inevitable edition change and reset. I hope we get some workable terrain rules and guide lines before that at least.

GW has not even shown that to be a solution to the wide power disparity between codexes. Some codexes were wildly out of step. They toned down codexes with Orks, Blood Angels, and Grey Knights and we all thought "Good job, GW is slowing their role" then they released a new SM codex and followed up with an Eldar codex that was arguably more broken than the previous broken one. And remember formations? Some were absolute garbage and some gave a nearly 50% free unit boost. Nids sucked in 6th and 7th despite a new codex release somewhere in there. 7th GSC was arguably very good but it came out in October and the new edition dropped in May (?). The power creep for Marines was more of a power Tsunami. The problem with 40K is that there is no baseline as far as I can tell.

For me the worst thing we have going right now is that we are a D6 game on a 24x60 board with a 6" base movement played in 6 +/- turns. This means that balance should be attained with these things in mind. Then they drop white scars that have so much movement shennanigans that they literally can threaten 100% of the board on turn 1 in the pointy hammer and anvil scenario. There aren't enough dice to counter that problem as it fundamentally breaks the game. How they allowed that after limiting all other T:1 charges is beyond me. I see far to many situations where the game outcome is largely determined before the first model moves on turn 1. That's bad for the game.

[kazetanade]

The super marines have been mad yes, but nothing else has been grossly out of step. The Eldar codex was only gross because Ynnari unique rules broke the action economy (same as in 7th, why they tear other armies apart) which allowed you to trade or do more than trade very consistently.

I mean look at Tau - it's difficult for assault armies but folds to psychic.

Necrons - people tell me it's bottom feeder.

Orks - got some good traction but is now apparently bottom feeder.

Quins and D.Eldar are both decent but not overwhelming, and aren't solo winning any big events.

Eldar - other than Plane spam, nothing else is around and even when it was more varied, we could hold our own.

AdM - a very strong gun line but that can be played around and doesn't force top tables.

Most Chaos entries - one or two good combos that keep them on the radar, but again not pushing any real overwhelming performance. Even the Daemon Engine spam list was really strong against Knight meta primarily, and much less strong now.

If we look at the top hate feed, its: Old Ynnari, Knights, Forgeworld Knights, Forgeworld Chaos Deredeos, and that's about it. Now with SM in, that's borked, but the general scene didn't feel that bad before this barring those things above.

[mule]

Nov 15, 2019 16:54:38 GMT kazetanade said:

The super marines have been mad yes, but nothing else has been grossly out of step. The Eldar codex was only gross because Ynnari unique rules broke the action economy (same as in 7th, why they tear other armies apart) which allowed you to trade or do more than trade very consistently.

I mean look at Tau - it's difficult for assault armies but folds to psychic.

Necrons - people tell me it's bottom feeder.

Orks - got some good traction but is now apparently bottom feeder.

Quins and D.Eldar are both decent but not overwhelming, and aren't solo winning any big events.

Eldar - other than Plane spam, nothing else is around and even when it was more varied, we could hold our own.

AdM - a very strong gun line but that can be played around and doesn't force top tables.

Most Chaos entries - one or two good combos that keep them on the radar, but again not pushing any real overwhelming performance. Even the Daemon Engine spam list was really strong against Knight meta primarily, and much less strong now.

If we look at the top hate feed, its: Old Ynnari, Knights, Forgeworld Knights, Forgeworld Chaos Deredeos, and that's about it. Now with SM in, that's borked, but the general scene didn't feel that bad before this barring those things above.

Necrons just went undefeated in a tournament.
Tau came in first.
ynarri came in 4th??

There was an ork in top 10 iirc??

Top 10 had 4 SM.
___

Tbh the games not that out of wack atm, but nids are completely out of meta at this point. I don' like how SM are getting a lot of tools that basically invalidate armies completely.