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Post by xsquidz on Nov 8, 2019 16:35:04 GMT
Note: if I recall correctly, this also works with outside of line of sight. A nice little trick to be close but not be able to be hit. Yes this was hugely debated in another thread lol. The best way to avoid Auspex scan is appear 9" away but behind LOS blocking cover and then moving closer after the chance to auspex scan is lost. |
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Post by mule on Nov 8, 2019 17:21:35 GMT
Note: if I recall correctly, this also works with outside of line of sight. A nice little trick to be close but not be able to be hit. Yes this was hugely debated in another thread lol. The best way to avoid Auspex scan is appear 9" away but behind LOS blocking cover and then moving closer after the chance to auspex scan is lost. If they let you.  |
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Nov 8, 2019 17:26:14 GMT
Yes this was hugely debated in another thread lol. The best way to avoid Auspex scan is appear 9" away but behind LOS blocking cover and then moving closer after the chance to auspex scan is lost. If they let you. Pulled it off in one game as there was a big line of sight blocking tower. I deployed behind the tower, we both agreed that he couldn't see me, then I rolled for perfect ambush and moved forward. |
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Post by xsquidz on Nov 8, 2019 17:30:09 GMT
If they let you. Pulled it off in one game as there was a big line of sight blocking tower. I deployed behind the tower, we both agreed that he couldn't see me, then I rolled for perfect ambush and moved forward. Yes I have done it in many tournaments and no one has EVER complained because it makes sense. If they don't let you, they are douchebags.  |
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Post by mule on Nov 8, 2019 17:52:36 GMT
If they let you. Pulled it off in one game as there was a big line of sight blocking tower. I deployed behind the tower, we both agreed that he couldn't see me, then I rolled for perfect ambush and moved forward. Ah I mean like, lots of times i've been in a position where my opponent has taken the board and I can't charge through LOS cause they've already pushed up and claimed the areas i'd deep strike in from. Infiltrators are a pain. |
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Post by kazetanade on Nov 8, 2019 18:03:34 GMT
Note: if I recall correctly, this also works with outside of line of sight. A nice little trick to be close but not be able to be hit. Yes this was hugely debated in another thread lol. The best way to avoid Auspex scan is appear 9" away but behind LOS blocking cover and then moving closer after the chance to auspex scan is lost. Actually, that is the exact debate going on - Auspex happens "after", but PA is "immediately after". Based on the grammatically implicated process, PA has to happen before Auspex can be declared, because "immediately after" and "after" are not in the same time slot. Arguments like "whoever doesnt let you do this is a douchebag" are emotive and vindicative - our goals are to play things right, not to shame people into agreeing into our point of view, even if our point of view *should* be correct. Also, I'd like to see you call your TO a douchebag to his face for making a ruling like that, if it ever arises, because that's a fast ticket to getting kicked out of the event. But it helps that there are enough big events judge rulings in favour of it, as long as you're going to those events yourself. The safest and un-arguable way to do it is to Set Up outside of 12" then PA into range for a weaker but still very manageable charge. |
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Nov 8, 2019 18:12:03 GMT
Yes this was hugely debated in another thread lol. The best way to avoid Auspex scan is appear 9" away but behind LOS blocking cover and then moving closer after the chance to auspex scan is lost. Actually, that is the exact debate going on - Auspex happens "after", but PA is "immediately after". Based on the grammatically implicated process, PA has to happen before Auspex can be declared, because "immediately after" and "after" are not in the same time slot. Arguments like "whoever doesnt let you do this is a douchebag" are emotive and vindicative - our goals are to play things right, not to shame people into agreeing into our point of view, even if our point of view *should* be correct. Also, I'd like to see you call your TO a douchebag to his face for making a ruling like that, if it ever arises, because that's a fast ticket to getting kicked out of the event. But it helps that there are enough big events judge rulings in favour of it, as long as you're going to those events yourself. The safest and un-arguable way to do it is to Set Up outside of 12" then PA into range for a weaker but still very manageable charge. Do you have the exact wording for auspex scan handy? Not being a marine player, I'd like to see it so I can make an informed argument. |
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Post by purestrain on Nov 8, 2019 18:18:48 GMT
This is still a thing? They happen at the same time (immediately after setup) the rules are quite clear, you get to choose which one happens first, it has range requirement, so if you don't set up outside of the range but move farther away in my opinion they can still shoot at you, as your initial setup was in a valid range. You could argue that because stratagems exist like the craft world and space wolf cards that only require you to be able to see them with a specific unit that itself can see another friendly to grant them to shoot means range has something to do with it, I'd err in the face of unknown opposition and just 12.1 away
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Post by 1b2a on Nov 8, 2019 19:30:28 GMT
They both say "immediately after" so if you were to land in the range they could shoot because you choose which goes first. However, it says "immediately after within 12 of unit setting up as reinforcement", but after you perfect ambush, you have technically set up OUTSIDE of 12, because that phase of reinforcements is done after your PA, so they can't as worded do the auspex scan.
So you set up the unit outside of 12". PA lets you move in. Your unit still set up outside of 12 because PA happens AFTER setting up. So they can't activate a stratagem that requires setup within 12" (as is written in the auspex stratagem, google it for an image of the rule).
Unfortunately auspex scan says immediately after. If it said after it would be clear to me that they couldn't do it.
As is, PA kind of sucks (8" charge on average). The best option is to just come in on their most dangerous shooter and vecting the Auspex scan. Because this is one argument that works against us, how about Sum One goes to GW for a faq to clarify?
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Post by xsquidz on Nov 8, 2019 19:37:08 GMT
They both say "immediately after" so if you were to land in the range they could shoot because you choose which goes first. However, it says "immediately after within 12 of unit setting up as reinforcement", but after you perfect ambush, you have technically set up OUTSIDE of 12, because that phase of reinforcements is done after your PA, so they can't as worded do the auspex scan. So you set up the unit outside of 12". PA lets you move in. Your unit still set up outside of 12 because PA happens AFTER setting up. So they can't activate a stratagem that requires setup within 12" (as is written in the auspex stratagem, google it for an image of the rule). Unfortunately auspex scan says immediately after. If it said after it would be clear to me that they couldn't do it. As is, PA kind of sucks. The best option is to just come in on their most dangerous shooter and vecting the Auspex scan I don't think anyone is debating that really (I hope not), the debate is more what if you appear 9" away but out of LOS (like in a ruin) and then move forward D6 with PA into LOS can they shoot you and I think its a very obvious no-at least to me its very clear. Why would it be any different then landing outside of 12" and then moving into range afterwards. |
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Post by 1b2a on Nov 8, 2019 19:39:01 GMT
They both say "immediately after" so if you were to land in the range they could shoot because you choose which goes first. However, it says "immediately after within 12 of unit setting up as reinforcement", but after you perfect ambush, you have technically set up OUTSIDE of 12, because that phase of reinforcements is done after your PA, so they can't as worded do the auspex scan. So you set up the unit outside of 12". PA lets you move in. Your unit still set up outside of 12 because PA happens AFTER setting up. So they can't activate a stratagem that requires setup within 12" (as is written in the auspex stratagem, google it for an image of the rule). Unfortunately auspex scan says immediately after. If it said after it would be clear to me that they couldn't do it. As is, PA kind of sucks. The best option is to just come in on their most dangerous shooter and vecting the Auspex scan I don't think anyone is debating that really (I hope not), the debate is more what if you appear 9" away but out of LOS (like in a ruin) and then move forward D6 with PA into LOS can they shoot you and I think its a very obvious no-at least to me its very clear. Why would it be any different then landing outside of 12" and then moving into range afterwards. I will play it that you can't, or clarify with opponent or TO ahead of time before placing, but RAW they can shoot you. Because they both occur at the same time. The only requirement for activating auspex is that reinforcements happened within 12". And if you PA first they can do it second. And they don't have to do it until you do because the wording is simultaneous.... OR since it is simultaneous I guess you can give them the initiative to auspex scan, since it is your choice... that is the one loophole I can think of. That's extremely meta though 99% of the time it won't be an issue, but if you were fighting me I would say I could auspex. Because of the rules. |
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Post by xsquidz on Nov 8, 2019 19:44:03 GMT
I don't think anyone is debating that really (I hope not), the debate is more what if you appear 9" away but out of LOS (like in a ruin) and then move forward D6 with PA into LOS can they shoot you and I think its a very obvious no-at least to me its very clear. Why would it be any different then landing outside of 12" and then moving into range afterwards. I will play it that you can't, or clarify with opponent or TO ahead of time before placing, but RAW they can shoot you. Because they both occur at the same time. The only requirement for activating auspex is that reinforcements happened within 12". And if you PA first they can do it second. And they don't have to do it until you do because the wording is simultaneous. 99% of the time it won't be an issue, but if you were fighting me I would say I could auspex. Because of the rules. Yeah, like I said, I have played in many tournaments and never had someone try to use auspex scan in that situation because its fairly clear to me (and them) that after the unit has moved, it is no longer being set up (which is what triggers auspex scan), so the time to use auspex scan has passed. We just need to wait for the FAQ I guess. |
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Post by kazetanade on Nov 8, 2019 21:55:11 GMT
I'm checking my digital codex now.
"Use this Strategem after your opponent sets up a unit on the battlefield within 12" of any.... "
I see at least 2 people? Insisting the wording is "immediately after", so that they can claim interpretation is obvious and shouldn't be argued.
And this is precisely what I mean about "playing it right", not shaming others into agreeing.
Edit: there seems to be some extra points on timing of going? And Auspex Scan not working because you've moved? The only one legitimate to argue is "they happen at the same time, it's my turn, I choose what happens first". That's assuming Auspex was actually happening at the same time as PA, which it grammatically does not.
You'd have to find an extremely obtuse and biased TO to rule you cannot Auspex after PA because its past the setup and you've already moved (thereby invalidating Auspex' timing condition) because although it technically is correct, it takes too much effort to understand in a game setting and feels bad, because it's alright to negate xenos stuff but not SM stuff.
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Post by mule on Nov 8, 2019 23:21:05 GMT
I'm checking my digital codex now. "Use this Strategem after your opponent sets up a unit on the battlefield within 12" of any.... " I see at least 2 people? Insisting the wording is "immediately after", so that they can claim interpretation is obvious and shouldn't be argued. And this is precisely what I mean about "playing it right", not shaming others into agreeing. Edit: there seems to be some extra points on timing of going? And Auspex Scan not working because you've moved? The only one legitimate to argue is "they happen at the same time, it's my turn, I choose what happens first". That's assuming Auspex was actually happening at the same time as PA, which it grammatically does not. You'd have to find an extremely obtuse and biased TO to rule you cannot Auspex after PA because its past the setup and you've already moved (thereby invalidating Auspex' timing condition) because although it technically is correct, it takes too much effort to understand in a game setting and feels bad, because it's alright to negate xenos stuff but not SM stuff. I agree with you entirely. That said because PA is expensive (3 CP) and Auspex is 2 CP I feel like perfect ambush should be... well.. perfect. I know this is sort of flawed logic, but with how many other tools SM has getting hit by a (please do not swear) tonne of Salamander flamers that can double tap after moving and count as not having moved, or 4x rapid fire bolter shots. etc. I feel atleast one thing should go in our way. Specifically since the army is designed to do deepstriking close by. Pair that with the fact that SM just got infiltrators which forces GSC to push blips out as well as pull our blips back.. Idk.. Lol. Just seems fair.  |
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Post by purestrain on Nov 9, 2019 0:24:47 GMT
It's just too bad that the actual card says 'immediately after setting up a unit within 12"'
Your version is either been corrected to show its slower or it's wrong like most of the digital stuff
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