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Post by iniquity on Oct 20, 2019 7:39:43 GMT
Been interesting reading all of these posts. I was an aspiring tornament player and quit the game because its not remotely balanced enough to be considered a competitive game.
Im actually really disappointed to hear that its just gotten worse. (although saving £££ is nice)
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Post by No One on Oct 20, 2019 9:13:50 GMT
Been interesting reading all of these posts. I was an aspiring tornament player and quit the game because its not remotely balanced enough to be considered a competitive game. Im actually really disappointed to hear that its just gotten worse. (although saving £££ is nice) The extra frustrating thing is, it was getting better. I think the pre-SM meta was the most balanced it's been in the entire time I've been playing, and they've been successfully using CA to tone down excessively powerful builds/units, and bring too weak stuff closer to parity. |
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Post by mule on Oct 21, 2019 2:37:33 GMT
Been interesting reading all of these posts. I was an aspiring tornament player and quit the game because its not remotely balanced enough to be considered a competitive game. Im actually really disappointed to hear that its just gotten worse. (although saving £££ is nice) The extra frustrating thing is, it was getting better. I think the pre-SM meta was the most balanced it's been in the entire time I've been playing, and they've been successfully using CA to tone down excessively powerful builds/units, and bring too weak stuff closer to parity. Im not entirely sure why they would let this sort of power creep in, im hoping as a temporary buff that they just lower other armies costs. Im not sure if we were allowed a 2500 point army in a 2k game (through a 20% point reduction on units) that if it'd change anything. The biggest issue isbthat they just have a lot of tools. If they were limited to a single codex it'd atleast aleviate a lot of the issues we're facing. But we don't even have a good hard counter list we can build our units aren't good enough against the tools they have. |
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Post by mule on Oct 21, 2019 3:18:15 GMT
If it makes anyone feel better, nobody wants tfexes to be awesome more than me. I have three of the (please do not swear). I dont think tfex have good rules. They should be mobile shooting bases. Not this weird middleground where if they stand still they get 2x shots. Just let them move without penalties and give their base shots 1.5x more than what it is and get rid of the shoot twice rule. |
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Post by gigasnail on Oct 21, 2019 3:31:47 GMT
there is just too much firepower being thrown around, the tfex and exo platforms both do not compete and cannot survive.
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Post by killercroc on Oct 21, 2019 14:38:25 GMT
I think the issue isn't so much as the Tyranno has to sit and shoot but rather what you compare it to is on another class level. Tyranno is fine with sit and shoot because you get 3 shots mobile or 6 holding still and 4/8 for his stingers so there is utility and flexibility, honestly there is no reason he's BS 4+ though, he should get the weapon symbiote just like Exo (Hive minds making similar artillery bugs that focus different targets, why he being stingy about only giving one pure shooting bug a chance to hit??) For his points too, 208 points and only BS 4+ Yeah sure he can get 6 S10 Lascannons but his cost doesn't match up if you ask me, if they're set on BS 4+ drop him to 180 (Slightly more than a russ but less than an annihilator). But my original point, he gets 3/6 S10 Lascannon shots and 4/8 pseudo-heavy bolter shots which isn't bad exactly but it depends on who you're fighting. That new SM hover tank has what two S10 AP -4 D6 minimum 3 damage shots or D6 S8 AP -4/ S9 AP -4 2 dmg plasma shots, heavy onslaught, twin bolter, two fragstorm, 2 storm bolters, Ironrail and can still take another ironrail and a rocket pod. Maxed out this thing gets effectively 12 guns ranging from anti-tank to anti-infantry all for 305 points. So yeah it's 100 points more but it's on a faster, better tougher platform with far more utility. Main gun shoots twice, it can fly, -2 to charge it, can move and fire heavy AND it's still a transport. AND!!! it's in the army that has aura re-rolls 1's to hit and wound so that's another buff to it to consider.
Point being, Tyranno is straight outclassed by these things in every way (except it's better in combat whoopie!) you shouldn't be trying to take these on with the Tyranno, Tyranno is reserved for taking on balanced tanks like a Russ or Predator, this tank is a budget super heavy LoW that's sitting in a heavy slot for the army that already can take massive amounts of high power ranged guns and didn't need MORE firepower. You want to take out 3 of these reliably? You're better off taking 3 Tyrannocytes with venomcannons with 6 Shock guard inside, it's 1,107 points vs your opponents 915 outclassing you by 190 points but you might be able to take out two the turn you land. Like I mathed earlier you should get around 16 mortal wounds and 8 on average wounds against these so you should take out one, then use double fire and all the venom cannons on another netting you roughly 4 Mortal wounds and 2 wounds, then with 15D3 Venoms that's about an average of 6 dropping it from 16 wounds to 6 meaning it'll be mid bracket and next turn you can finish off the last two! That is if you don't get blasted off the table T1 before you can even pod in...
So cool, we do have a way to beat 3 Repulsors now they nerfed IH, but it takes a dedicated 1,107 points to take out 915, and only $615 dollars worth of models compared to $300 dollars of models your opponent spends. That's right! For 200 more points and double the cash you can beat Repulsor spam in a reliably average two turns!!! Praise The Hive Mind for we are delivered!
TL;DR no sarcasm: Our options are (please do not swear) and just taking out these 3 units is going to take more time and effort than should be needed, we're pretty much screwed.
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 21, 2019 15:27:12 GMT
If we were to put it in another way - the Executioner gets too many guns and special rules and base stats for its cost, and the only reliable way of dealing with it is... Not letting it shoot, pretty much.
As an asides, GSC have a decent chance of killing one with the ubiquitous BC Lasers. 8 to 10 shots of Lascannons on a 3+, say 6 land(more with Kelly) , 4 wound (more with the reroll), all fail, 3+4+3+4 14W done. 2W left on the Repulsor, so it shoots not great anymore (ignoring strategems to ignore vehicle damage). The one I'm kinda keen to try is the re-rolling flamerlytes - 20 is 70 hits, re-rolling 6s is like... 12+10 wounds, with a 3+ sv so 7 wounds dealt, Perfect Ambush shooting leaves it at like 2W left too.
Flamerlytes - the answer to life's worst problems. Except Infiltrators, and intercepting/over watching Aggressors.
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Post by No One on Oct 21, 2019 15:34:46 GMT
so it shoots not great anymore (ignoring strategems to ignore vehicle damage) Or being IH, where even healing up to 4 wounds puts at top bracket I'm pretty sure... Yeah, BC mining can kill it (though need a bit of luck/5+ squads/keler). I did the maths with the 5++ and Ironestone and they did OK. With both being less of an issue, ~14 wounds with 8, ~17 with 10 (plus potentially still IH FnP). Of course, that's just one... |
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 21, 2019 15:53:59 GMT
so it shoots not great anymore (ignoring strategems to ignore vehicle damage) Or being IH, where even healing up to 4 wounds puts at top bracket I'm pretty sure... Yeah, BC mining can kill it (though need a bit of luck/5+ squads/keler). I did the maths with the 5++ and Ironestone and they did OK. With both being less of an issue, ~14 wounds with 8, ~17 with 10 (plus potentially still IH FnP). Of course, that's just one... The 5++ FAQed to only infantry, and Ironstone only affects 1 now - so you drop Bikes and Mining Lasers on the non-iron stoned one, and drop Flamerlytes on the Ironstone one, that's 2 Repulsors dead. Of course the 1 remaining Repulsor still tears you to bits, but at least that's 600 pts down in trade, which is a fair trade. (350 for Lasers + 160 for Acos + 75 for bikes). You come out ahead a tad bit. You also can't use both Acos and Bikes in the same way and turn so... Problems ensues. |
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Post by killercroc on Oct 21, 2019 15:56:23 GMT
GSC ML will have the same issue as Nids, you have a tool but it's not very good so you need to spam it, and then it comes down to points. 10 ML means you have to take at least 5 Neophyte squads so you need to drop 50 models within 24", not impossible but it is a bit crowded. 10 ML is 5 hits, but if you have a Keller that's able to e within aura range of them all and still shoot something thats more so about 7 hits, 5 wounds (rounded up but could be 4) and if failed saves doing 14-17 damage so it can kill one, needing 430 points worth of infantry to do it, so you're still required to take over 100 points mores worth of stuff to have a somewhat moderate chance to kill one, assuming nothing else gets it the way. But hey, you only need $200 worth of infantry to pull this off so it's at least more affordable that shock guard bombardments. Main issue I think is getting the drop on 3 of them. Saw Acolytes is another option however though I'm sure it has been discussed? 20 Acolytes is 16 saw attacks, 11 hits, 5-6 wounds so 10-12 damage, leaving 24 claws, 16 hits, 2-3 wounds so 2-3 damage followed by 12 knives, 8 hits, 1 wound which they will most likely save. Grand total an average of 12-15 damage which is just not enough so these will have to be buffed by the banner, Primus or the +1S/A power, either of those 3 should guarantee a kill.
Saw Acos are good, just need your opponent to leave room to drop them, but if they're wrapped tight you're not doing anything. Also the point of we want Tyranids to kill them not GSC, while cult are utility not everyone wants to run them. I like running solo nids 9/10 games my Cult usually doesn't tag along. I don't want to have to take allies to deal with something my main codex cannot, which is a big issue.
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Post by mule on Oct 21, 2019 15:59:43 GMT
I think the issue isn't so much as the Tyranno has to sit and shoot but rather what you compare it to is on another class level. Tyranno is fine with sit and shoot because you get 3 shots mobile or 6 holding still and 4/8 for his stingers so there is utility and flexibility, honestly there is no reason he's BS 4+ though, he should get the weapon symbiote just like Exo (Hive minds making similar artillery bugs that focus different targets, why he being stingy about only giving one pure shooting bug a chance to hit??) For his points too, 208 points and only BS 4+ Yeah sure he can get 6 S10 Lascannons but his cost doesn't match up if you ask me, if they're set on BS 4+ drop him to 180 (Slightly more than a russ but less than an annihilator). But my original point, he gets 3/6 S10 Lascannon shots and 4/8 pseudo-heavy bolter shots which isn't bad exactly but it depends on who you're fighting. That new SM hover tank has what two S10 AP -4 D6 minimum 3 damage shots or D6 S8 AP -4/ S9 AP -4 2 dmg plasma shots, heavy onslaught, twin bolter, two fragstorm, 2 storm bolters, Ironrail and can still take another ironrail and a rocket pod. Maxed out this thing gets effectively 12 guns ranging from anti-tank to anti-infantry all for 305 points. So yeah it's 100 points more but it's on a faster, better tougher platform with far more utility. Main gun shoots twice, it can fly, -2 to charge it, can move and fire heavy AND it's still a transport. AND!!! it's in the army that has aura re-rolls 1's to hit and wound so that's another buff to it to consider. Point being, Tyranno is straight outclassed by these things in every way (except it's better in combat whoopie!) you shouldn't be trying to take these on with the Tyranno, Tyranno is reserved for taking on balanced tanks like a Russ or Predator, this tank is a budget super heavy LoW that's sitting in a heavy slot for the army that already can take massive amounts of high power ranged guns and didn't need MORE firepower. You want to take out 3 of these reliably? You're better off taking 3 Tyrannocytes with venomcannons with 6 Shock guard inside, it's 1,107 points vs your opponents 915 outclassing you by 190 points but you might be able to take out two the turn you land. Like I mathed earlier you should get around 16 mortal wounds and 8 on average wounds against these so you should take out one, then use double fire and all the venom cannons on another netting you roughly 4 Mortal wounds and 2 wounds, then with 15D3 Venoms that's about an average of 6 dropping it from 16 wounds to 6 meaning it'll be mid bracket and next turn you can finish off the last two! That is if you don't get blasted off the table T1 before you can even pod in... So cool, we do have a way to beat 3 Repulsors now they nerfed IH, but it takes a dedicated 1,107 points to take out 915, and only $615 dollars worth of models compared to $300 dollars of models your opponent spends. That's right! For 200 more points and double the cash you can beat Repulsor spam in a reliably average two turns!!! Praise The Hive Mind for we are delivered! TL;DR no sarcasm: Our options are (please do not swear) and just taking out these 3 units is going to take more time and effort than should be needed, we're pretty much screwed. Could always pod in shockguard?? They'll die the turn after though 100% of the time. |
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Post by 1b2a on Oct 21, 2019 16:02:51 GMT
Or being IH, where even healing up to 4 wounds puts at top bracket I'm pretty sure... Yeah, BC mining can kill it (though need a bit of luck/5+ squads/keler). I did the maths with the 5++ and Ironestone and they did OK. With both being less of an issue, ~14 wounds with 8, ~17 with 10 (plus potentially still IH FnP). Of course, that's just one... The 5++ FAQed to only infantry, and Ironstone only affects 1 now - so you drop Bikes and Mining Lasers on the non-iron stoned one, and drop Flamerlytes on the Ironstone one, that's 2 Repulsors dead. Of course the 1 remaining Repulsor still tears you to bits, but at least that's 600 pts down in trade, which is a fair trade. (350 for Lasers + 160 for Acos + 75 for bikes). You come out ahead a tad bit. You also can't use both Acos and Bikes in the same way and turn so... Problems ensues. Could you tell me exactly what combo (support char, strat, bubbles) you do with the mining laser squad? a shooty drop would be great for my list. |
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Post by killercroc on Oct 21, 2019 16:04:23 GMT
You don't have to pod them you could Jorm tunnel saving you the points and money on Pods. However the main reason for pods is the extra Venom Cannon shots, while not great with enough of them you'll eventually do damage. Also with pods you can cover more area than a single jorm tunnel, so if your opponent has their tanks spread out or just less tanks than you figured you can always adjust tactics mid game.
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Post by kazetanade on Oct 21, 2019 16:17:45 GMT
The 5++ FAQed to only infantry, and Ironstone only affects 1 now - so you drop Bikes and Mining Lasers on the non-iron stoned one, and drop Flamerlytes on the Ironstone one, that's 2 Repulsors dead. Of course the 1 remaining Repulsor still tears you to bits, but at least that's 600 pts down in trade, which is a fair trade. (350 for Lasers + 160 for Acos + 75 for bikes). You come out ahead a tad bit. You also can't use both Acos and Bikes in the same way and turn so... Problems ensues. Could you tell me exactly what combo (support char, strat, bubbles) you do with the mining laser squad? a shooty drop would be great for my list. Alphus + Patty + Kelly bubble, with BC WLT for rr wounds against 1 target. Its the single cheapest consistent drop we have. Nanavantis and I think sneggy too use 5 Laser units for 10 shots total - I use 4 for 8 total, because I invested in an FAE detachment that needs it's own buffs. Sneggy swapped some of the characters (I think he has no Nexos or Clamavus) and FAE support characters for a Bike squad instead. I've since returned to Nanavantis older version, but kept 8 Lasers and characters to add the bikes instead. |
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Oct 21, 2019 20:29:54 GMT
Could you tell me exactly what combo (support char, strat, bubbles) you do with the mining laser squad? a shooty drop would be great for my list. Alphus + Patty + Kelly bubble, with BC WLT for rr wounds against 1 target. Its the single cheapest consistent drop we have. Nanavantis and I think sneggy too use 5 Laser units for 10 shots total - I use 4 for 8 total, because I invested in an FAE detachment that needs it's own buffs. Sneggy swapped some of the characters (I think he has no Nexos or Clamavus) and FAE support characters for a Bike squad instead. I've since returned to Nanavantis older version, but kept 8 Lasers and characters to add the bikes instead. Who do you give the BC warlord trait to? I've been misplaying that as I thought it was within 6" of that model, not within 6" of your warlord. |
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