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Post by pokesers on Aug 5, 2019 21:24:29 GMT
So I have a few CSM models and want to actually turn them into the beginnings of an army. This was the base I wanted to work from: ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [48 PL, 920pts] +++ No Force Org Slot +Legion: Renegade Chapters + HQ +Daemon Prince with Wings [9 PL, 183pts]: Hellforged sword, Khorne, Warp bolter, Wings Sorcerer in Terminator Armour [7 PL, 125pts]: Combi-melta, Diabolic Strength, Force stave, No Chaos Mark, Prescience, Warlord + Troops +Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 150pts]: Mark of Khorne . Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Plasma pistol, Power fist . 8x Marine w/ Chainsword . Marine w/ special weapon: Flamer Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 150pts]: Mark of Khorne . Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Plasma pistol, Power fist . 8x Marine w/ Chainsword . Marine w/ special weapon: Flamer Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 150pts]: Mark of Khorne . Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Plasma pistol, Power fist . 8x Marine w/ Chainsword . Marine w/ special weapon: Flamer + Elites +Chaos Decimator [8 PL, 162pts]: Decimator siege claw with hellflamer, Decimator storm laser, Khorne ++ Total: [48 PL, 920pts] ++Created with BattleScribeThe only models I would have to buy for this is 2 boxes of marines which makes it quite appealing. I also don't fancy painting tons of cultists, and they don't get a legion bonus. My original plan was alpha legion but I built my marines back when they had s bolter and a chainsword so they are already set up as melee marines. Because of this I felt that the -1 to hit wouldn't help much as I won't be outside of 12" much. How does this look as a base and how should I expand from here? Also could I do better for a legion trait? Any advice at all is welcome. |
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Post by bolk on Aug 6, 2019 9:58:38 GMT
If you're running that many CSM with chainswords I'd say Brazen Beasts, but then you can't use the Sorcerer, since all units must have Mark of Khorne.
If you want to run melee you should get Berzerkers, Rhinos (for the berzerkers and CSM), Lord Discordants, Venomcrawlers and/or Maulerfiends, Helbrutes (which you should magnetize) and more Daemon Princes.
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Post by pokesers on Aug 6, 2019 11:51:52 GMT
Are the Red Corsairs any good? From what I understand they have the same legion trait as renegade chapters but also get you 3CP more per battalion if the battalion contains 3 units of chaos marines. Also what legion would you go for when building a more balanced army with some havocs and other shooty dudes?
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Post by bolk on Aug 6, 2019 14:22:55 GMT
Advance and charge is always good, and 3 extra CP is big argument if you're running CSM anyway. Imo cultists aren't worth it anymore without traits and 5ppm. Not to mention there's nothing stopping you using psykers.
My reason for Brazen Beasts is that with so many extra attacks from chainswords their trait is horrifying.
Really depends on what you wanna do, I have several lists with more than 1 legion in different detachments. If you're in a ruin-heavy meta for example, and still wanna go melee, having a battalion with World Eaters/Red Corsairs/Brazen Beasts and a shooting Spearhead detachment with Iron Warrior trait to ignore cover is a nice solution. Black Legion with Abaddon reroll to hit aura is real nice as well.
As for shooting units, you should go for Havocs, Obliterators and Helbrutes (Helbrutes are the CSM equivalent to Nid Carnifex, hence magnetizing). If your local meta accepts FW then Hellforged Contemmptor dreadnaughts are awesome.
Bikes or Raptors with Melta Guns are nice fast anti tank units as well, just don't expect Raptors to live very long after deepstriking them in.
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Post by pokesers on Aug 6, 2019 14:39:21 GMT
Brazen beasts is the one with the swarmlords mortal wound ability armywide right? It does sound tempting when running bezerkers with chainswords, since on a charge they should get 4 attacks each right and can fight twice. So a squad of 10 can put out 40 attacks on a charge? which should give around 5-6 mortal wounds per combat. It does sound pretty nice. I also like the sound of running an iron warriors support regiment as I do play with a lot of ruins. I still think I prefer the advance + charge and bonus CP of the red corsairs to the brazen beasts though.
Which detachment would me siege claw, storm laser decimator engine be best in since its a hybrid? Also whats the minimum size squad of marines you would run? 10 models seems a bit squishy but 20 gets expensive fast. Thanks for your advice so far.
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Post by pokesers on Aug 6, 2019 15:59:47 GMT
Advance and charge is always good, and 3 extra CP is big argument if you're running CSM anyway. Imo cultists aren't worth it anymore without traits and 5ppm. Not to mention there's nothing stopping you using psykers. My reason for Brazen Beasts is that with so many extra attacks from chainswords their trait is horrifying. Really depends on what you wanna do, I have several lists with more than 1 legion in different detachments. If you're in a ruin-heavy meta for example, and still wanna go melee, having a battalion with World Eaters/Red Corsairs/Brazen Beasts and a shooting Spearhead detachment with Iron Warrior trait to ignore cover is a nice solution. Black Legion with Abaddon reroll to hit aura is real nice as well. As for shooting units, you should go for Havocs, Obliterators and Helbrutes (Helbrutes are the CSM equivalent to Nid Carnifex, hence magnetizing). If your local meta accepts FW then Hellforged Contemmptor dreadnaughts are awesome. Bikes or Raptors with Melta Guns are nice fast anti tank units as well, just don't expect Raptors to live very long after deepstriking them in. I came up with a 1500 point list of Red Corsairs and Iron Warriors. I cut the decimator and sorcerer as they were too many points for what they do in theory. How does this look? ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [51 PL, 12CP, 986pts] +++ No Force Org Slot +Battle-forged CP [3CP]Detachment CP [5CP]Legion [3CP]: Red Corsairs + HQ +Daemon Prince [8 PL, 159pts]: Diabolic Strength, Hellforged sword, Intoxicating Elixir, Reaver Lord Artefact, Warp bolter . Slaanesh Huron Blackheart [6 PL, 1CP, 105pts]: Reaver Lord, Warlord, Warptime + Troops +Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 160pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh . Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Plasma pistol, Power fist . 8x Marine w/ Chainsword . Marine w/ special weapon: Flamer Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 160pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh . Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Plasma pistol, Power fist . 8x Marine w/ Chainsword . Marine w/ special weapon: Flamer Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 160pts]: Icon of Excess, Mark of Slaanesh . Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Plasma pistol, Power fist . 8x Marine w/ Chainsword . Marine w/ special weapon: Flamer + Elites +Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 170pts]: Icon of Wrath . Berzerker Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainsword . 9x Chainsword and bolt pistol + Dedicated Transport +Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Combi-bolter, No Chaos Mark ++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [26 PL, 508pts] +++ No Force Org Slot +Legion: Iron Warriors + HQ +Chaos Lord [5 PL, 85pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-plasma, Fleshmetal Exoskeleton, Mark of Slaanesh + Heavy Support +Havocs [7 PL, 181pts]: Mark of Slaanesh . Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Plasma gun . 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon Havocs [7 PL, 121pts]: Mark of Slaanesh . Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Plasma gun . 4x Havoc w/ heavy bolter: 4x Heavy bolter Havocs [7 PL, 121pts]: Mark of Slaanesh . Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Plasma gun . 4x Havoc w/ heavy bolter: 4x Heavy bolter ++ Total: [77 PL, 12CP, 1,494pts] ++Created with BattleScribeThe plan is that the lord sits back and buffs the havoc's so they hit on 2+. There are two heavy bolter squads for dealing with infantry in ruins and one with lascannons for wrecking vehicles. Then I will have the bezerkers in the rhino and Huron hidden behind the normal marines. For the points he costs Huron just seems really good. The Daemon prince is Spanish purely for the relic then he can buff himself with his psychic power. Huron can help the footslogging marines get to objectives or combat with warptime. |
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Post by bolk on Aug 6, 2019 18:40:32 GMT
Looks good, though I would take minimum squads of CSM and add more Berzerkers, CSM are pretty much there for filling the battalion for 3 extra CP. I usually never take less than 2 10-man squads of berzerkers in 2 rhinos, unless for squeezing in buffing characters like Exalted Champion or Dark Apostle. Noone should care if you use CSM as Berzerkers just to test out a list in a friendly game. Rather put Power Fists on Berzerker Champions since they fight twice. Plasma pistols give a nice kick, but imo put them only on lords that have a reroll 1s to hit, so you can overcharge them with way less chance of killing the model. The Lord for buffing Havocs is nice, but I'd rather put in a sorcerer with Prescience and Death Hex (warpcharge 8, but so good when you pull it off), and he's almost as good as the lord in combat to protect the Havocs. For anti-infantry on Havocs I'd go for Reaper Chain cannons. Expensive, but much better and can take on light armour in a pinch. Here's my list for Red Corsairs+Iron Warriors for reference; ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [61 PL, 11CP, 1,032pts] +++ No Force Org Slot +Battle-forged CP [3CP]Detachment CP [5CP]Legion [3CP]: Red Corsairs + HQ +Chaos Lord with Jump Pack [6 PL, 103pts]: Axe of Blind Fury, Mark of Khorne, Plasma pistol, Power axe Dark Apostle [5 PL, 100pts]: Benediction of Darkness, Mark of Khorne, Reaver Lord, Reaver Lord Artefact, The Black Mace, Warlord, Wrathful Entreaty + Troops +Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 67pts]: Mark of Khorne . Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter . 4x Marine w/ Boltgun Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 67pts]: Mark of Khorne . Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter . 4x Marine w/ Boltgun Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 67pts]: Mark of Khorne . Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter . 4x Marine w/ Boltgun + Elites +Helbrute [6 PL, 100pts]: Helbrute fist, Helbrute fist, Mark of Khorne Helbrute [6 PL, 100pts]: Helbrute fist, Helbrute fist, Mark of Khorne Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 140pts]. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power axe . 7x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 7x Chainaxe Khorne Berzerkers [9 PL, 140pts]. Berzerker Champion: Chainsword, Power axe . 7x Chainsword and Chainaxe: 7x Chainaxe + Dedicated Transport +Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 74pts]: Combi-bolter, Combi-bolter, Mark of Khorne Chaos Rhino [4 PL, 74pts]: Combi-bolter, Combi-bolter, Mark of Khorne ++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [49 PL, -1CP, 968pts] +++ No Force Org Slot +Detachment CP [1CP]Gifts of Chaos (1 Relic) [-1CP]Legion: Iron Warriors Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Devastation Battery + HQ +Master of Executions [4 PL, 70pts]: Intoxicating Elixir, Mark of Slaanesh Sorcerer in Terminator Armour [7 PL, 114pts]: Combi-bolter, Death Hex, Force axe, Mark of Tzeentch, Prescience + Heavy Support +Havocs [7 PL, 152pts]: Mark of Slaanesh . Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter . 4x Havoc w/ reaper chaincannon: 4x Reaper chaincannon Havocs [7 PL, 172pts]: Mark of Slaanesh . Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter . 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon Obliterators [12 PL, 230pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, 2x Obliterator Obliterators [12 PL, 230pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, 2x Obliterator ++ Total: [110 PL, 10CP, 2,000pts] ++Created with BattleScribe |
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Post by pokesers on Aug 6, 2019 19:54:53 GMT
Is that 2x8 Berzerkers? Also why go chainsword and chainaxe when its more points efficient to go chain sword and bolt pistol and also gives more attacks in total? I really like Huron too, he seems strong with a free second relic and a CP just for having him as warlord as well as being a psycher and having a pretty decent statline and low cost. He is also fluffy which I like.
I do like the dark apostle in there though, the prayers seem really quite good. Last thing, the only reason the marines in my list are kitted out how they are is because they are old models and thats how I built them, is there any use for them or should I just retire them to the shelf and get new models? I would rather find a way to work them into the list as new boxes of 10 are like £28 now.
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Post by bolk on Aug 6, 2019 21:35:26 GMT
Yeah, mostly because of points and that I'm bringing the Dark Apostle in one of the Rhinos along the Berzerkers.
The loadout on Berzerkers depends on player preference. With Chainaxes they go up to S6, where they'll wound even T5 on 3+, and the AP-1 is a big deal. Then with the chainswords in addition each model gets an extra attack in combat and they fight twice, further drowning your opponent in attacks, and the bolt pistols doesn't benefit from Death to the False Emperor. Sure, you lose a shot in the shooting phase, but gain 2 attacks in combat that on 6s to hit trigger another attack.
Huron seems indeed good for the points, I have other lists including him, but haven't gotten around to try him out.
Dark Apostles are really good, my favourites are the +1 to wound and -1 to hit prayers.
I bring CSM with boltguns since I like to keep them back as objective holders and taking shots when they can. Chainswords work in any legion with a melee trait, so try them out, see how it works for you. Unless you're in a very WYSIWYG strict meta, just try them out with different loadouts to find what works your gears. Yeah, this hobby isn't cheap as is, so most people will understand your situation in a friendly game.
I'm in love with the new CSM models though xD
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Post by pokesers on Aug 6, 2019 22:37:10 GMT
I have been reading up and it seems the main use for chaos marines is objective holders with a reaper chain cannon as the special, but then they dont really benefit from the Red Corsairs trait at all which kinda sucks and feels a bit wasteful. Do CSM have any other good objective babysitters for cheap? I mean I guess havocs can do it if the objective is in some ruins or smth but they dont seem like they want to move.
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Post by bolk on Aug 7, 2019 9:32:12 GMT
Yeah I know many do that, but I find they get quite expensive then. I rather use the points on other units.
You have Spawn, 25ppm and fast attack that you usually don't fill up anyway. But in this kind of list the Havocs can do it fine, remember they can move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty.
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Post by LordPathos on Aug 15, 2019 20:21:04 GMT
Remember, just because the actual CSM arent benefiting from the advance/charge from red corsaits if sitting on obj isnt that bad. You still get the +3 cp and any other infantry, helbrute, dp still get the benefit. Possessed, Greater Possessed, dual tentacle helbrutes moving up the field is gonna be scary.
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Post by pokesers on Aug 28, 2019 9:18:29 GMT
Also theres the CSM version of Green Tide strat to revive close to an entire CSM squad which will give great value.
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