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Post by almostmercury on Apr 8, 2018 18:10:44 GMT
kazetanade No One autoxidation acehilator nidzy burd So, when you post "tournament" or "competitive" in the T'au groups I've found, you tend to get silence in response. I know there are a number of competitive minded players here who also play T'au, so this is for you. The local big GT decided to go up in points and remove any power level restrictions. Here's the list, I'll post some thoughts later on. Old List
Brigade Detachment (T'au Sept)
HQ
Coldstar Commander: Warlord, Puretide Engram Chip, 4x Fusion Blasters
Darkstrider
Longstrike: Ion Cannon, 2x SMS, 2x Seeker Missile
TR
Kroot x10
Fire Warriors x9: Shas'ui, 9x Pulse Rifles
Fire Warriors x9: Shas'ui, 9x Pulse Rifles
Fire Warriors x5: Shas'ui, 5x Pulse Rifles
Fire Warriors x5: Shas'ui, 5x Pulse Rifles
Fire Warriors x5: Shas'ui, 5x Pulse Rifles
EL
Firesight Marksman
Riptide: HBC, 2x SMS, ATS, VT
Riptide: HBC, 2x SMS, ATS, VT
FA
Drones x5: Shield x4, Marker
Drones x4: Shield x3, Marker
Drones x4: Shield x3, Marker
HV
Sniper Drones x3
Hammerhead: Ion Cannon, 2x SMS, 2x Seeker
Broadside: 2x HYMP, 2x SMS, ATS, Seeker
Vanguard Detachment (Bor'kan or Sa'cea)
HQ
Coldestar Commander: 4x Fusion
EL
Firesight Marksman
Firesight Marksman
Firesight Marksman
Firesight Marksman
Vanguard Deatchment (Vior'la or Farsight)
HQ
Coldstar Commander: 4x Fusion
Technical Drones x2
Stealth Suits x3: Shas'vre, 3x Burst Cannon, 2x Shield Generator
Stealth Suits x3: Shas'vre, 3x Burst Cannon, 2x Shield Generator
TOTAL: 2498 pts, 14 CP
Brigade Detachment (T'au Sept) HQ Coldstar Commander: 4x Burst Cannon Cadre Fireblade: Puretide Chip Darkstrider Longstrike: Ion Cannon, 2x SMS, 2x Seeker Missile TR Kroot x10 Kroot x10 Fire Warriors x9: Shas'ui w/Markerlights, 9x Pulse Rifles Fire Warriors x9: Shas'ui w/Markerlights, 9x Pulse Rifles Fire Warriors x9: Shas'ui w/Markerlights, 9x Pulse Rifles Fire Warriors x7: Shas'ui w/Markerlights, 7x Pulse Rifles EL Firesight Marksman Riptide: HBC, 2x SMS, ATS, VT Riptide: HBC, 2x SMS, ATS, VT FA Drones x4: Shield x4 Drones x4: Shield x4 Drones x4: Shield x4 HV Sniper Drones x3 Hammerhead: Ion Cannon, 2x SMS, 2x Seeker Hammerhead: Ion Cannon, 2x SMS, 2x Seeker Vanguard Detachment (Sa'cea) HQ Coldstar Commander: 4x Fusion EL Firesight Marksman Firesight Marksman Firesight Marksman Vanguard Deatchment (T'au) HQ Coldstar Commander: 4x Fusion, Vectored Thrusters Technical Drones x2 Stealth Suits x3: Shas'vre, 3x Burst Cannon Stealth Suits x3: Shas'vre, 3x Burst Cannon TOTAL: 2499 pts, 14 CP The thoughts I have now are that Stealth Suits may only need to be 1 unit, and I may change one tank into a broadside for consistency and one Riptide can use an Ion Accelator. I have 6 high quality markerlights, maybe only 5 are necessary. Anyway, I appreciate any input.
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Post by autoxidation on Apr 8, 2018 19:48:59 GMT
1. You have no Cadre Fireblade.
2. It's 3 points to give a Fire Warrior Shas'ui a markerlight. I think it's always worth it.
3. The Vanguard with firesight marksmen should definitely be Sa'cea.
4. 10 more Kroot might not be a bad idea on a points scale this large. Helps screen 2 sides.
5. I haven't used Sniper Drones yet, but I would consider dropping them for a Broadsides (either HYMP or RR) with a velocity tracker. Really helps smack down units with fly. If you're set on using them, they need a drone controller nearby. Drone controller + Firesight Marksmen = 3+ BS on sniper drones with no markerlights.
6. The one marker drone in your drone units is pretty worthless. Hitting on a 5+ normally means they are rarely going to be useful. I would either swap them for more shields or drop them entirely.
I think this list is going to have a lot of trouble trying to remove massive blobs like Cultists or Poxwalkers. I prefer to use more Firewarriors (40+) with a Fireblade to help with this. They are also very dangerous to assault armies and screen your tanks/suits well against assault.
You have a lot of vehicle removal available with 3x fusion commanders, 3 Ionheads, and the Riptides. Maybe swap 1 Fusion Commander for 1 HYBC + 3 BC to babysit the rest of your forces? I think that would free up points for a cadre fireblade.
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Post by almostmercury on Apr 8, 2018 20:11:19 GMT
Thanks, I’ll dig into this later today. But you know the cadre Fireblade is only for models within 6” right?
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Post by autoxidation on Apr 8, 2018 20:55:54 GMT
Yes, but he's still really good. And he's a B2 2+ markerlight. Sits in the middle of a blob of FW and most of them easily get the 3rd shot.
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Post by acehilator on Apr 8, 2018 21:09:38 GMT
Not playing Tau, but I'll bite  (considering it, but waiting for the Ork codex first) The Coldstar Commander in the T'au brigade needs Vectored Maneuvering Thrusters as the relic. The Engram Chip is worthless, and you have enough CP anyways. Agree on lone Marker drones being useless. And too expensive. Switch the 5 model Drone unit to Vespids if you own the models. Switch the second Drone unit to a unit of Pathfinders with Pulse Accelerator Drone, because 30+ FWs is enough to warrant a proper castle. Get an Etheral while you are at it, and don't forget the Cadre Fireblade The Vanguard with the Firesight Marksmen needs to be Sa'cea, too good to give up and you need a Sa'cea detachment anyways to gain access to the "Orbital Marker Distribution Uplink" stratagem. Ditch the forth Marksman to free up points. Make the Vanguard with the Stealth suits T'au, they are the ones most likely getting charged. Is your local meta assault heavy enough to warrant using T'au for the Brigade? Would need some shuffling around for Longstrike, but not running the FW castle as Bork'an seems like a waste. |
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Post by No One on Apr 8, 2018 23:39:19 GMT
I know there are a number of competitive minded players here who also play T'au, so this is for you. ...You do know that mattblowers was joking when he said I play Tau, right? Anyway, don't play, haven't played, so can't give too much help, though I'll second basically everything autoxidation said. Other thoughts: -Riptide+triple iontide+triple fusion commanders seems a tad overkill. Maybe drop a riptide for some more anti-infantry? You've still got the single for the strat, and with 3 hammerheads he's probably going to be ignored. Is HBC though, so...? -Why shield gens on the stealth? I'd probably go target lock and some other sept (i.e. not Viorla), or max a unit for hot blooded (if they're infantry??) The Coldstar Commander in the T'au brigade needs Vectored Maneuvering Thrusters as the relic. The Engram Chip is worthless, and you have enough CP anyways. An extra ~5 CP/equivalent? Pretty nice, especially with a 3CP strat (+1 wound) to potentially use most turns, orbital marker every turn etc. That said, moving PEN to another commander and grabbing vectored on the Tau for 1 CP is may be a good idea. |
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Post by almostmercury on Apr 9, 2018 1:01:56 GMT
Okay. Lots to discuss here, I'll probably get to it all over a couple of posts. I'll start with the Septs and relics.
I'm not going to brigade Bor'kan, because the T'au stratagem is what I'm after and I want most of my models (and heavy hitters) to be in that Sept for that reason. I want to be prepared for the high power level stuff and that +1 will put some work in. The 5+ overwatch is a bonus and it's one of the ways I interact in the assault phase. Overwatch and fly. FTGG and 5+ means I've got a mini shooting phase in my opponent's assault phase. The Bor'kan range has been helpful, but maybe if something is more than 36" away, it doesn't need to be lit immediately, especially since the tanks have the range and with 1 light will be 2+, re-rolling 1s. So there's that to consider. Those Sa'cea re-rolls are very nice.
Bor'kan would also let me have a riptide in the det with an Ion Accelerator, and use the re-roll weapon hits strat along side the 3++ but that would just be too many ion and fusion weapons... but I'll get to unit composition in a bit.
The Commanders. I want three, so 1 will be T'au. Sa'cea is a handy tenet on a coldstar with fusions, meaning I can re-roll a 1 without a light, or a 2 after advancing, -1 to hit, or both. It's not Vior'la, but it's something. The 3rd detachment, could be anything, but Farsight would give me the fusion blades, which are quite good! Or even a mixed detachment to take the -1 to hit relic for some truly resilient commanders.
The Puretide Chip is the best relic in the codex, by far. In fact, it will probably enable to you take a second or even third relic if you wanted by paying for them over the course of the game. It basically comes with a free CP in terms of a re-roll because that commander will certainly be re-rolling damage at least once in the game, if not wounds.
If I'm using uplink, branched nova, and even focused fire nearly every turn, along with the variety of useful stratagems the whole game, then 14 CP is actually not enough. This army is HUNGRY, and that's 2+ rolls per turn for my stratagems alone, not including my opponent's. That is very many rolls and will net me a number of CP.
The thrusters are good, but they're a second pick, up there with fusion blades, the -1 to hit (if you're actually taking Dal'yth), and one or two others. The guns aren't that great because you need to be putting a flamer, plasma rifle, or AFG on a Commander in the first place. Pass.
Man, this codex is so much harder than Kraken, Kronos, -1 to hit on a flyrant...
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Post by almostmercury on Apr 9, 2018 1:15:40 GMT
I made a mistake. 1 Ionhead should be a broadside with HYMP...
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Post by almostmercury on Apr 9, 2018 1:36:51 GMT
1. You have no Cadre Fireblade. 2. It's 3 points to give a Fire Warrior Shas'ui a markerlight. I think it's always worth it. 3. The Vanguard with firesight marksmen should definitely be Sa'cea. 4. 10 more Kroot might not be a bad idea on a points scale this large. Helps screen 2 sides. 5. I haven't used Sniper Drones yet, but I would consider dropping them for a Broadsides (either HYMP or RR) with a velocity tracker. Really helps smack down units with fly. If you're set on using them, they need a drone controller nearby. Drone controller + Firesight Marksmen = 3+ BS on sniper drones with no markerlights. 6. The one marker drone in your drone units is pretty worthless. Hitting on a 5+ normally means they are rarely going to be useful. I would either swap them for more shields or drop them entirely. I think this list is going to have a lot of trouble trying to remove massive blobs like Cultists or Poxwalkers. I prefer to use more Firewarriors (40+) with a Fireblade to help with this. They are also very dangerous to assault armies and screen your tanks/suits well against assault. You have a lot of vehicle removal available with 3x fusion commanders, 3 Ionheads, and the Riptides. Maybe swap 1 Fusion Commander for 1 HYBC + 3 BC to babysit the rest of your forces? I think that would free up points for a cadre fireblade. 1. I certainly see the benefit to the synergy, I just didn't include one on the basis that it's models affected, not units, and I didn't feel that I had enough firewarriors. I guess 33 is enough? I mean, some of them will be holding objectives in the corners though. I'll look into including 1, but I'm still inclined to want more warriors and 2 fireblades for that to be a fully fleshed out strategy. Darkstrider and a Fireblade would be quite handy together on the off chance that firewarriors don't just evaporate in CC and get to fall back too. 2. Agreed, but I was really tight on points and that's the kind of thing you cut to squeeze a few extra models in. 3. Yeah, the range has helped! But the re-rolls might be better... I don't know. 4. I mean, If I could fit 2 Kroot units and 2 Stealth suit units, I would feel the most comfortable. But because I only dare to use 6 troop slots, they always come at the expense of firewarriors. 5. The sniper drones are good. They're one of very few S5 character sniping weapons and have the full 48" range (rapid fire too!) AND they're one of the few drones you can easily be firing at 3+ re-roll 1s. Ideally, you'd have more, but these are slot fillers. I'd love to have another tank or Broadside, but at 100 additional points... that's steep. 6. Fair enough. I was just sprinkling lights. It has the same chance of giving me a token as a shield drone does of tanking the mortal would. It's really marginal either way. Hmmmm... HYBC and 3 BC... that had never actually crossed my mind, but that is 20 shots! |
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Post by almostmercury on Apr 9, 2018 1:46:02 GMT
I know there are a number of competitive minded players here who also play T'au, so this is for you. ...You do know that mattblowers was joking when he said I play Tau, right? Anyway, don't play, haven't played, so can't give too much help, though I'll second basically everything autoxidation said. Other thoughts: -Riptide+triple iontide+triple fusion commanders seems a tad overkill. Maybe drop a riptide for some more anti-infantry? You've still got the single for the strat, and with 3 hammerheads he's probably going to be ignored. Is HBC though, so...? -Why shield gens on the stealth? I'd probably go target lock and some other sept (i.e. not Viorla), or max a unit for hot blooded (if they're infantry??) The Coldstar Commander in the T'au brigade needs Vectored Maneuvering Thrusters as the relic. The Engram Chip is worthless, and you have enough CP anyways. An extra ~5 CP/equivalent? Pretty nice, especially with a 3CP strat (+1 wound) to potentially use most turns, orbital marker every turn etc. That said, moving PEN to another commander and grabbing vectored on the Tau for 1 CP is may be a good idea. I had never seen you discuss playing T'au, but you give good feedback and have strong analytic skills. The riptides are HBC, which are only S6 so they are middle ground weapons that fill all of the roles. 18 shots (with +1 to wound, potential re-rolls to wound, and up to +2 re-rolling 1s to hit) will do a ton of work against big things, but 20/26 unbuffed shots will also do crazy work against infantry and elites too. If the one tank is actually a broadside with 16 shots is that more balanced? Stealth suits don't have heavy weapons, so you wouldn't take a target lock unless you wanted a marker light (they come as a package). It's either Drone Controller or shield gen because ATS went up 10 points per model on them. I don't have drones, so it's shield gen or bare. The shield gen is to make them that much harder to move for a fair price. If I even get 1 additional turn out of them, it bought my army another round of shooting before deep strike. Are they points to be shaved? Certainly. |
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Post by autoxidation on Apr 9, 2018 1:47:33 GMT
Another thing if you take a Fireblade, he can be your HQ with the Puretide Chip and that lets you suicide your 4X fusion Commanders when they need to without worrying about losing the bonus. Then it might be worth spending 1 CP for the extra jump relic on one of them.
Not sure if you've thought about warlord traits yet but I kinda like both Precision of the hunter and Exemplar of Mont'ka for Fusion Commanders.
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Post by autoxidation on Apr 9, 2018 2:02:04 GMT
Here I put this together with what I was thinking. It still has 147 points to work with.
++ Brigade Detachment +9CP (T'au Empire) [102 PL, 1855pts] ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
T'au Empire Sept Choice: T'au Sept
+ HQ +
Cadre Fireblade [2 PL, 42pts]: Markerlight, Puretide engram neurochip
Commander in XV86 Coldstar Battlesuit [8 PL, 134pts]: 3x Burst cannon, High-output burst cannon
Darkstrider [3 PL, 45pts]
Longstrike [10 PL, 212pts]: 2x Smart missile system, Ion cannon, 2x Seeker missile
+ Troops +
Kroot Carnivores [3 PL, 50pts]: 10x Kroot
Kroot Carnivores [3 PL, 50pts]: 10x Kroot
Strike Team [4 PL, 73pts]
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Markerlight, Pulse rifle
. 9x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle
Strike Team [4 PL, 73pts]
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Markerlight, Pulse rifle
. 9x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle
Strike Team [4 PL, 73pts]
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Markerlight, Pulse rifle
. 9x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle
Strike Team [4 PL, 73pts]
. Fire Warrior Shas'ui: Markerlight, Pulse rifle
. 9x Fire Warrior w/ Pulse Rifle
+ Elites +
XV104 Riptide Battlesuit [14 PL, 250pts]: 2x Smart missile system, Heavy burst cannon
XV25 Stealth Battlesuits [6 PL, 84pts]
. Stealth Shas'ui w/ Burst Cannon: Burst cannon
. Stealth Shas'ui w/ Burst Cannon: Burst cannon
. Stealth Shas'ui w/ Burst Cannon: Burst cannon
XV25 Stealth Battlesuits [6 PL, 84pts]
. Stealth Shas'ui w/ Burst Cannon: Burst cannon
. Stealth Shas'ui w/ Burst Cannon: Burst cannon
. Stealth Shas'ui w/ Burst Cannon: Burst cannon
+ Fast Attack +
Tactical Drones [2 PL, 40pts]: 4x MV4 Shield Drone
Tactical Drones [2 PL, 40pts]: 4x MV4 Shield Drone
Tactical Drones [2 PL, 40pts]: 4x MV4 Shield Drone
+ Heavy Support +
TX7 Hammerhead Gunship [9 PL, 175pts]: 2x Smart missile system, Ion cannon, 2x Seeker missile
TX7 Hammerhead Gunship [9 PL, 175pts]: 2x Smart missile system, Ion cannon, 2x Seeker missile
XV88 Broadside Battlesuits [7 PL, 142pts]
. Broadside Shas'ui: 2x High-yield missile pod, 2x Smart missile system, Velocity tracker
++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (T'au Empire) [11 PL, 249pts] ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
T'au Empire Sept Choice: Sa'cea Sept
+ HQ +
Commander in XV86 Coldstar Battlesuit [8 PL, 174pts]: 1. Precision of the Hunter, 4x Fusion blaster, Warlord
+ Elites +
Firesight Marksman [1 PL, 25pts]: Markerlight, Pulse pistol
Firesight Marksman [1 PL, 25pts]: Markerlight, Pulse pistol
Firesight Marksman [1 PL, 25pts]: Markerlight, Pulse pistol
++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (T'au Empire) [11 PL, 249pts] ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
T'au Empire Sept Choice: Sa'cea Sept
+ HQ +
Commander in XV86 Coldstar Battlesuit [8 PL, 174pts]: 4x Fusion blaster
+ Elites +
Firesight Marksman [1 PL, 25pts]: Markerlight, Pulse pistol
Firesight Marksman [1 PL, 25pts]: Markerlight, Pulse pistol
Firesight Marksman [1 PL, 25pts]: Markerlight, Pulse pistol
++ Total: [124 PL, 2353pts] ++
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Post by kazetanade on Apr 9, 2018 3:16:52 GMT
Been pouring over the codex last week with glee, but honestly I've never played Tau before. I own a mostly 2nd hand in NIB army until i finish painting my Nids (and potentially GSC). Luckily the AM army i use is a shared one and the other guy is painting it.
Up above i actually agree with most points made by auto, mainly the thing that springs up is crisis suits could be a reasonably priced high impact method of clearing infantry, as are Stealthsuits (better priced but less impact).
The Bor'kan reroll strategem looks trolltastic at best, i wouldnt actually rely on it in a competitive game. I also wouldnt bring more than 1 Riptide, but i would give the riptides Velocity Tracker (if Ion) and ATS (if HBC), then CFS if Tau or TL if Bor'kan or whatever(or just stick to rerollable OW).
I dont believe in Fire Warriors + Cadre as an anti-infantry measure; its just a deterrent. Do you know the amount of havoc a single Flyrant will do to them? We should as Nids, and its a lot. A single Dev Gaunt drop will wipe out via morale and double shooting approx 6 units of FWs. So you really need the stealthsuits (up to 3 or 4 units IMO) to control the map to prevent such things from happening, or you need a hella lot of kroot to prevent them running up with Mortarion or Genestealers or BA on T1 and just smashing your face flat. I dont own a single Kroot model so I'd be stuck with option 1. Use the FW as supporting fire with their 30" range, and deal the brunt of the attack using stealthsuits and the Riptide.
For the record, stealthsuits ARE infantry but i dont think Viorla sept strategem gives them that much. Max size unit doubletap is 48 shots of 4+ S5, which is ok but I'd question the 2cp cost for that. And right now max sized stealths is not what you want.
I want to suggest Broadside units with ATS, HYMPs and SMS with rerollable wound from the strategem (way more value than +1 to wound IMO and only 1cp) and +1 to wound. Similar to Broodlords with MRC except without the risk and less ap. Its also a lot more flexible than a Ionhead, can be protected by drones. Downside, 4+ to hit and wastes a commander slot (which you can fill with Plasma, and use him as basically a Buffmander w/ enogram and C&C, still kicks teeth in during Overwatch). I wish the enogram gave a reroll a turn, that would be a lot more times better but its already decent using it on someone else instead of the carrier.
I'll come back later today thinking about ITC specifics and more closer look at your army concept. I just had to get the above off my chest, all i hear are "Tau is bad, Tau is disappointing, Tau is weak". The propaganda is strong in them.
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Post by No One on Apr 9, 2018 4:43:28 GMT
3. Yeah, the range has helped! But the re-rolls might be better... I don't know. Marker strat. I'd say rerolls~>=range (partly by dint of, as you mentioned, most of your stuff being unable to benefit from markers that far out anyway), but the ability to dump a bunch of single markers guaranteed wherever you like is pretty huge I think. Yeah, that probably works: had forgotten about the secondary weapons on the riptides. Was assuming you wanted Viorla for the advance and shoot, which (from memory?) target lock also negates. If they're actually a nice cheap option, I guess that works? I'd just expect them to fold horribly to light/med anti infantry if your opponent actually wants them dead, which isn't really affected by 4++. |
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Post by almostmercury on Apr 9, 2018 13:43:45 GMT
I don’t know if it’s the right choice, but if 8 point shield generators save 1 wound to keep one alive for a turn it’s worth it. 1 less oblitorator shooting phase? Yes please.
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