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Post by kazetanade on Dec 29, 2019 11:32:50 GMT
Uh? I'll go back and check, but I thought every faction in the game can mix batt. That will create some difficulties if not possible. It's the battle brothers thing, to stop GSC+nid soup. Except there's nothing between Tyranid and <Hive Fleet>, so no mixed bats. Can fit in 3 dets - a Behemoth Batt, Kronos Batt, and Jorm Outrider. 2 Flyrants, SL, and 3 Neurothropes. Hormas drop to 25/24/24, see if it gets any traction at this size. The alternative is to put both in Kronos and accept HG on the ground may get blasted. The easier one is to remove the Flyrants. We can do some Kronos Warriors or BL/GS shenanigans instead, too. But that's a different list concept altogether. EDIT: For Easy Reference, Encaphalic Diffusion damage reduction www.hostilegalaxy.com/2020/01/08/tyranid-tactics-maleceptor-and-encephalic-diffusion-mathhammer/EDIT 2: Genestealers Durability www.hostilegalaxy.com/2020/01/06/tyranid-tactics-genestealers-and-blood-of-baal/EDIT 3: Charge Probabilities www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-hive-math/
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 13, 2020 18:34:00 GMT
Right, so after some testing:
- My SL hates me. 2 Games, 18A made on 2+, 7 x 1s. 11 Wound rolls on a 2+, 6 1s. I know its a dice game, but come on man. Dont skew me like this.
- Jorm is nice, coming down and rerolling everything against a key target is nice, but it's not game breaking. Assuming we're working with Flyrants coming down to charge, or with a Genestealer drop, or a Genestealer Sling, there will be targets fighting for Onslaught and we need something on the board to kill things with to begin with. The NLOS shooting is our best candidate, especially in Kronos where a Symbiostorm makes them capable of wiping 2 Scout Squads no matter what, instead of risking Transhuman stealing the kill for ITC kill/kill more, or EW first strike. Genestealers going bonkers for the first kill on Scouts doesnt help, to be effective they need to storm past the scouts and murder stuff further in, leaving the blockers in place. Not an issue if we're playing a DS shooting, or a shooting only Flyrant list. Definitely a solid contender.
- Maleceptor with Encaphalic Diffusion is a potentially super key entry, sleeper game changer. With Carapace, Prepared Position, Dynamic Camo, Enca, Spore Cloud, and Catalyst, a Genestealer unit only takes 4? casualties from a full blast of 6 Bolter Centurions. My big question right now is where we're going to get the cover save from after T1 (for Catalyst). I am considering potentially playing Stealers into Jorm... You could probably have the same results from Warriors, who are only more vulnerable to ap-3 weapons (the most relevant one being Bright Lances in an Ignore Cover Aeldari Custom Craftworld), while having a lot more play value in Jorm. I dont think we can get KotH with this, since the Warriors are really tied to the Maleceptor who cant move until some of the anti-tank is removed (Lascannon Devs only do like 5W to it so it can tank, and even tanking an Executioner Cannon doesnt take it down, but it'll fall to like mass Butchers and unlucky saves on 3D weapons). Sadly the impact for Gaunts isnt that great, since mass bolters still wound on 4+ (you lose as many Gaunts as you would normally Genestealers, which is still a lot) but since it's gaunts you dont feel it as much. It's really just about buying time with them, and Jorm/Levi + Enca + Spore Cloud will do a real number on that. This could probably form the basis of an Engineers' based list, if you wanted to use Gaunts as Engineers and Ground Blockers only. Gaunt Carpet gets ridiculously strong with this. Having a shooting gallery line of Kronos or Jorm TFex/Exos could also work as well, since T8 benefits the most in the MC category (I swear there is a troll list in here somewhere).
- Exocrene is decent. He's killed half a Helverin first game (really bad wound rolls, rolled my 4+ like a 6+) , and killed 2 Oblitz units in the 2nd. Sadly, didnt even wound a Knight, but he almost killed a Chaos Lord in Overwatch and did almost deal 6W to the Knight, if the enemy didnt make 8 6+s in a row. Dice happens. He dies really easily. If I can drop him behind BLOS I think he has a really good chance, but with the 5++ he doesnt live very much longer so I found it pointless giving it to him. This guy is pretty much just a trader - drop him, he trades for equal or better points, then dies. I am not sure I am sold on him being the central pillar of a gunline.
- DS Genestealers are awkward. You need +1W to be that powerhouse, you're not really getting +1W when dropping out of DS unless you're accompanied by a Flyrant. Assuming base Genestealers do the job for you, they can follow a Prime who charges with his 78% chance with Arachnyte Gland and they follow up with Hive Instinct for their own 78% charge. If you can score that extra dead model for 4d6 then you're in really good position on the drop, but so far I havent really recalled a time where that would have been a strong option. If there are a few options, then charging the Prime into infantry he kills and making the Genestealers consolidate outwards to other charge targets can also work.
- I think Suicide Stealers work really well with the new buffs. +1W means they can even take on Knights, dealing close to 20W in 1 round of combat alone. Of course if the enemy makes 9 5++ from a relic, nothing you can do, but most Knight players do not take 5++ in combat and when you do face it... just needs more focus. I dont even like having to talk about Knights, but I'm SOMEHOW still having to deal with them, even if they're outdated meta. I hate Knights. Barring Knights, with +1W I think Stealers can actually take out any tank or Elite choice, maybe even things like Cents and Aggressors, but gonna be honest, the overwatch is going to hurt a lot on those type of targets. This could possibly be a very strong combination with GSC in the future, where you send in 1 Genestealer squad with the spell on and deny OW on the scariest target by spell or relic.
- Havent got a chance to use Savage Distraction. Seems like it could be funny, but I am out of cp as is. Need Triple Batt for sure.
- Triple Hormagants seemed like it could work, with Male/Mala on they at least have some level of survivability against the alphastrike. A unit of 25 managed to kill 6 marines themselves (had to Unending Hunger and Feral Instinct them tho), which is not bad, and the 6" conso was amazing for touching and tying things up thereafter. Of course everything in his army moved 14" or more a turn, so Savage Distraction was never a choice to begin with. Unending Hunger is extremely key for them though, and even then It really cant handle anything heavier, such as Centurions or Aggressors. If Transhuman didnt exist I'd advocate Exocrenes as an anti-Cent weapon, but eh.
- Triple Flyrants, our TAC. I think they could work together with a strong ground presence list, you drop with Arachnyte for that 78% charge (boost with cp reroll) then pop the AG 3d6 reroll for a 90% chance charge on the other 2. Wrap a target so that it doesnt run away, then just bully them out - it almost worked with my first list, I just forgot to wrap, and I rolled super below par on the actual damage stuff. I am wondering about Kraken, but I like Behemoth just because the reroll to charge without a spell means it's something guaranteed. Also gives me access to SoT, which I can also top up with Hunger, and Murderous Size, to get an impromptu Knight killing or Cent killing weapon. If Cents and Knights can be handled via other ways, then this wont be necessary. It may also be possible to run Triple Flyrants in custom fleet, but I'm not sure if that's a great option since they did the really stupid thing of making ONE UNIT IN THE ARMY able to use a chapter tactic, in fact the best chapter tactic for Flyrants. I would have picked that up and the reroll hit one for the HVCs if I could, I think that makes them really strong support gunline. But the option is not open, so... likely never touching the custom fleets. Maybe specifically for Carnifex Stampede.
- Toxicrene. I cant figure him out. Running across the ground is not an option - he's an easy point to grab, and demands SL puts himself out of position to send him up. In a pod, he has to deal with a 9" charge - 2 BGH points, a difficult charge, points of failure. What goes in with him, and what benefits the most? In my head, just Flyrants. So maybe a Kraken Flyrant + Kraken Toxicrene combo could work, although I dont know why we are bothering with that in the first place since without Arachnyte or without killing something first it's not effective, and what can a solo Kraken Flyrant even do? You're taking away the charge chain starter for a single Toxi, who has mediocre to poor damage output due to no rerolls to hit and general low number of A for its intended target (elites with 2 to 3W, which you might kill 2 or 3 of depending on your luck). We need to get some massive value out of that Toxi strat, and there's only Tau which in my mind has that sort of issue. An SM player would just charge and Smash Cap it to death, assuming whatever you charged couldnt kill you or didnt have something close by to do it anyway. Maybe Aeldari, if you manage to grab a bike squad and lock it down this way, but since you cant grab planes, the real power impact is questionable. I suppose this is the alternative if you dont want to play Triple Flyrants, since it's bloody expensive pointswise, but again, is a solo Flyrant going to get much of anything done?
- There are a lot of good potential synergies taking in GSC, which I'll work on a later date. I really want a pure Nids list right now.
My list will probably, since I'm currently on the Sling until I get around building more Warriors or wanting to play something else, look like this:
Behemoth Batt: SL Malanthrope 2 x 30 Hormagants 1 x 20 Genestealers, Acid Maw, Carapace, Adaptive [Resistance] 1 x Maleceptor 1 x 3 TG, LWBS, AG, TS, Adaptive [Resistance]
Kronos Batt: 2 x Neuro 3 x Rippers 1 x 6 HG 1 x Exo 1 x TCyte
But I want to work out a triple Flyrant list or a Flyrant/Toxi list sometime. This is a really small RTT or something, so I dont mind playing a bit of a blaze list that wins or loses hard, but gotta find a nice TAC soon.
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 26, 2020 9:20:27 GMT
A couple of new things in mind:
Venerable Chaplain Dreads. Didn't know they were a thing.
20-40 Intercessors in a list
No TFCs but 3x Eliminators
Lots and lots of Eldar Spears and Bikes (replacing good Ol Flier spam, not ignoring cover which is kinda pointless for Spears).
2+1 units of RG (no WS in sight) Assault + Dev Cents - why are people using Dev Cents? It's all Grav but its expensive...
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 29, 2020 18:55:36 GMT
Right, so this is going to be a bit of a rant post, as I throw the stuff in my head together for the next half hour or so or however long it takes.
So after the LVO, a few things I managed to pick up on - FIRSTLY, Pure Shooting Armies that rely on quality of shots are in a bit of a bind. With SM having access to Transhuman and their new uber Apothecary giving a 5+++ in a very limited bubble, IH having access to Ironstone and Feirros to give Intercessors their 5++ for a 3+ 5++ 5+++, with 4+ to wound always, and Character Dreads hiding at the back of all of this in their safe little bubble, armies that rely on quality shots and high AP to cleave through Intercessors will now basically have this issue of not being able to actually clear them. Without removing all 40 Intercessors, and THEN an impossible to kill Leviathan Dreadnought, shooting armies are not going anywhere. On the flip side, extremely high volume of 1D or 2D shooting are able to get stuff done through all the damage reduction, especially as these have lower ap to begin with and dont have penalties for the invul bestowed on these marines. They are also resillient to Mortal Wounds, with a strategem for a 5+++ vs Mortal Wounds (in psychic or out, cant remember, WLT gets 4+++). IH is decently tanky against shooting options, with a -1 to hit and a +1sv option in spells. They also have an auto-deny (almost, auto-deny), and are extremely difficult to charge (IH base has 5+, strategem for 4+, and Successors still get 5+ with strategem)
There are other armies to consider, but for the time being let's consider the major meta played in the LVO, which is the 90+ IH lists.
In the average IH army, we are looking at a few tech options, as follows:
TFCs, Eliminators, Intercessors with Stalkers, Levi Dreadnought, Chaplain Redemptor Dreadnoughts, Executioners, Suppressors, (possibly) Centurions, (possibly) Whirlwinds, Grav Devs. A counter Smash Cap in case you get close with a big thing, a Feirros for tank, Captain/CM with Ironstone, Lieutenant, a Psyker for the spells. This is a castle army with a few options for vulnerable or invulnerable damage. The winning lists make it to the top by playing cagey and castling for 2-3 turns, letting you move out of position, then blasting you to pieces.
The common weakness between all IH armies (but not shared with all other SM armies) is a distinct lack of super heavy anti-infantry fire. That is to say, they can clear anything but an extremely dedicated infantry spam list. Their anti-infantry guns all span S4 to S5, making T4 the absolute biggest beneficiary, with T8 and T3/5 coming in right after. They also have a limited number of heavy anti-tank fire, although what they do have is very high quality (executioners, or 6 Character Lascannons). This leaves us with a few options. T8 shooters being on the board makes those Lascannons sweat as it takes a lot more effort to kill them, but it's just effort - they will still go down by round 2 of shooting (6 shots, 6 hits, 3 wounds, 6+sv, 3d6D for 10D average, Leviathan moving up will finish the job if even required). Our only T4 chassises are GS and Warriors, So it comes down to a question - can we leverage Genestealers on the ground to good effect without throwing them into suicide slings, or do we prefer Warriors who can slug it out a little in shooting? As we already know, they possess enough anti-infantry to really hurt non-dedicated Infantry lists (and the Levi's output cant be dampened using Encephalic (googled this word, wtf GW) Diffusion). Because Stalkers are Broken with a base -2, they become -3, thereby overcoming our defensive Adaptation. With ED on but no neg hit debuffs, we can expect to take something like 2 dead GS (if you use the Jorg + DC + Warrior strat, it's 2Ws, anything else gets into the 3W range) per 10 man unit. On the flip, we can probably expect something like 5 dead Gaunts per 10 man. Based on pure tankiness, I believe the Gaunts get the most buck - After all the shooting, you only kill 20 Gaunts. You lose 2.5 Warriors in total, putting you net ahead with Jorm + DC + ED + Strat warriors who can now shoot back at the marines with S5 ap-1/ S8 ap-2 which doesnt care about their invul. You lose 8 Genestealers in the trade T1, which means this unit is no longer able to charge and maintain its damage.
That is suggesting that we should have 2 Exocrenes on the table who can be buffed by the Male/Mala combo, followed by 1 or 2 Warriors who can also be buffed by the Male/Mala combo. Or, 2 Exocrenes in pods who can be buffed by Male, after some anti-tank has been removed, with the Warriors benefiting from Male/Mala.
By Playing a Double Exo + HG combo into Intercessors, you would be able to remove a fair chunk of them while sustaining relatively manageable losses to your Warriors from their fire back, which gradually fails. The last piece of the puzzle is dealing with the Leviathan, which cannot be shot to death due to Ironstone + Duty Eternal. I think this can only be solved with a charging unit tanking its overwatch and not letting go for the entire game, bringing in mind Acolytes - if points permits, Abbys can fill the same role while also being some level of super damage. Assuming we're prioritizing Charge ability, we would take this as FAE, eschewing BC/TH's increased damage output. This unit comes in on Turn 3 after you've had some time to clear out what's at the front, then gets its wrap in and slowly dismantles what it can throughout its remaining turns. This unit can also serve as a major anti-big thing, having the capability to kill a Knight, a Cent squad, a Discolord, or whatever else that ails you. The only thing it cant kill is an Executioner because it cant make the charge.
So a really rough draft of a list would look like this:
Jorm Batt -Malan, Neuro - 1 x 9 Warriors w/Guns [Adaptive] - 2 x 30 Gaunts for space reasons - 1 x Exo - 1 x Pod
Kronos Batt -Neuro, Neuro - 3 x 3 Rippers - 1 x 6 HG [Optional Adaptive] - 1 x Exo - 1 x Pod
FAE Batt - Iconward [Optional WL], Primus, Magus - 1 x 20(?) Acolytes with or without Saws - 2 x 10 BB - 1 x Sanctus w Deny Overwatch - 1 x Nexos
I think that's overpointed, so we probably have to trim a lot somewhere. I'll probably key it in and see where we stand on points and make some changes in this post.
There is an option 2 in a DS heavy approach to alphastrike back at the enemy, which we will consider in a later post.
Next post will be considering the above against the other SM factions. If I have brainpower, I will continue vs the major Chaos list or potential that I know of, and then the Xenos factions after that.
Edit: over by 234 points, without the pods. This is going to be tough - I was expecting 100 over, not 200+. We are going to hVe to drop a major part of our list to accommodate this. We'll work with option 2 tomorrow.
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Post by No One on Jan 30, 2020 5:00:01 GMT
(in psychic or out, cant remember, WLT gets 4+++ Anytime. Also, WLT is just a 5+++, doesn't change. What's the -1 from? I think you're really overestimating how much you'll be able to kill of the screens. With 5++/5+++, exo isn't really efficient anymore (I think ~2-4 dead depending on symbio). Hive guard do pretty decent, killing ~3 per volley without symbio, and (probably?) more effective into 5+++ or 6+++ with D3. So probably looking at killing elims and 2, maybe 3 squads of intercessors with 2 turns of shooting. I don't think that's going to be enough to get through the screens and reliably enable a hostage. Warriors help, but exos are also probably going to die.
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 30, 2020 14:32:17 GMT
No One I never understand how to do you make such nice quote bubbles... The -1 to hit might be from wrong guys, that's Salamanders, not IH. My bad. Exo gets 6 shots with Symbio going up to 7 hits, with 5 wounds, and 3 failed saves. Pop the increase damage spell, the 5++ shouldnt often interrupt one of your kill streaks, so one exo can kill 6 Primaris. An extremely bad trade to be honest. HG Gets their 12 shots with Symbio going up to 12 hits, with 10 wounds, 6 failed saves, maybe 3-4 dead due to variable damage and fnp, so it's pretty much the same as an Exo. So if anything, probably dropping the double Exos (eschewing the double T8) is the way to go. I'll make some changes to the list for further consideration.
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Post by No One on Jan 30, 2020 14:45:06 GMT
No One I never understand how to do you make such nice quote bubbles... [quote author="@member"]Text[/quote] [quote]Text[/quote] (And practice) Yeah, if you're popping +1 dam, it gets better. But still surprisingly bad odds of 2/3 5+++ wasting a shot (~25%).
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 5, 2020 17:12:48 GMT
Wow. FML. That's 3 times my post has been lost while typing it out.
Super Super Summary:
- Eldar sucks. Kryptonite army cuz Fliers curtail all our major strengths, but everything else can actually be handled.
- Zoeys are best candidates for EncaDiff benefits. 3++ and T4, so no additional hoops need to jump.
- Zoeys + Double RuptureFex/Exo on frontline + Malec/Mala combo in the back. DS HG/Exo and gaunts to round up. More or less has good deflection of main IH builds - Smites and Zoey Strategem for bunched up Intercessors, Exo/RFex for added pressure on Intercessors/Executioners, Leviathan has a bad time shooting your shooters and Lascannons can be tank for awhile, while you remove the actual Intercessor threats (you're gonna have to figure out how to score with it).
- Considerations for RG/WS Cents, it's a good matchup. Both Exo/RFex take Grav on 6+ to wound rerolling, and 5++ means only 2 goes through. They dont die to Cents unless it gets charged. Exo is our best shooting option vs Cents but RFexes can be funny, Dev Cents can be touched so basically ram plasma down the Assault Cents throats and ram Gaunts down the Dev Cents throats. Smites will soften the Cents enough to make them a non-issue for RFexes or Exos. It's a lot safer than the alternative, which is suicide Murderous Flyrant charges. As long as we have like 90 Gaunts up the front, we can take it (in case they decide to burn Assault Cents into Gaunts to remove our scoring abilities, and to make sure they cannot get a rear end or side ways DS charge on the shooters).
- Consideration for IF/DA/BA standard builds, yeaaaaaaaaa it's not a problem. Moving on.
- What about Tau? Tau hates our Psychic, so that puts us into a good position. Everything here is 5+ to hit due to Malanthrope. Gotta see what PA gives them, but so far nothing seems to be a big risk. Their only S9 gun is Ion Cannons from the Hammerheads or Riptides, and we already know Riptides love to have HBC more than Ion Cannons. Not needing to charge negates their free Shooting Phase. So let the Gaunts soak damage from HBCs or Pulse, which wont do much, so we just take up as many objectives as we can and just trade damage. Of course, Tau having +1 to wound means we dont have a great deal of time to whittle them away - but having 3 T8 shooters makes things awkwardly difficult for them to just decimate and must dedicate time to it, and the Smites will be a constant issue they need to deal with at the same time. RFexes would have a really rough matchup here due to low number of shots, so that puts the lean towards Exocrenes more than RFexes in general despite the range difficulties. Then of course, HG with double shoot is a massive massive problem for them too while they're trying to kill 12 or 18 Zoanthropes.
- What about Aeldari? This is one of our problem matchups I think. The Ignore Cover + Pulse Laser/ Star Cannon consideration weighed very heavily on why I decided against Warriors as the basis of the list. T8 Shooters are great here because S8 now S7 means even with their Sally Rerolls they are not getting a huge number of wounds on your Monsters, and giving them a 5++ means they will need to dedicate 3+ planes to kill just 1 monster if they do at all. If they're running 5+ planes, then the ground troops should be easy pickings for our HG dropping down. If they're running 3-4 planes, then the combined shooting and Smites will be able to bring them down to negligible rather quickly. Just 3 normal smites forces the standard Aeldari Plane player to move his planes away as soon as he can, so having 3 Super Smites basically kills a plane outright (or if he's savvy and tries to focus down the Zoeys, you've got 6d3 which still averages 12). Of course if he's playing the infamous 2++ Spears, we're going to have issues, so it's probably a good idea to have a Broodlord or 2 nearby to countercharge in your turn, assuming he doesnt Withdraw (no 2++) and try to run away ASAP. Grotesque based lists I have no idea what to do - that 4++ 6+++ into T6 W4 is just tough as nuts to break, so I have no real answers. Zoey Smites are the best I can figure, since even suicide Flyrants arent going to get a lot done here and are likely to die from Mortal Wound return damage if unluckly.
- Possessed bomb, something I havent actually seen yet. I'm tempted to think this will be an issue list to deal with, since that list is specially tailoured to be hard to break for Shooting armies. I really need to see one in action to be sure, but I would probably just put my money on trying trying to smite the Front Blocker to death ASAP, then eat the charge and shoot it to death. The problem will be that incredibly Thicc Oblitz drop that comes down T2 and is amazingly difficult to deal with, while outputting amazingly unbelievable amounts of damage. This feels like it's anybody's game.
- Magnus/Mortarion tag team. I think this is a concede game, since they dont do damage in the shooting stage really, are magnificiently Psychic tuned with high bonuses to success, can super deny our Smite DPS, has 3++ and 4++ to tank all the damage from our shooters relatively comfortably, move extremely quickly and can fly with a super high number of attacks, and will still have 75% of an army behind them after they're taken out. So hopefully we dont see this nonsense too often.
- AdMech gunline list, yeaaaaaa The plasma in Ryze are S9 3D so basically dead big bugs, and Baymaxes have S6 so they will tear into Zoeys with that weight of fire and potentially super accurate shooting. I'd say we probably have to accept we're going to take a lot of casualties from this setup and Focus down the main shooter, and try to play the objectives thereafter, because there's realistically nothing you can do in terms of different builds to make this less painful to deal with. Luckily they're not as popular.
- Knights. Knights. Yea I would have liked a super Flyrant for this, but many are taking Gallants or equivalent with potential relics for 5++ or 4++ in combat so... That isnt an option anyway. I feel like this will be a problem match up for us since we dont have the 9 Biovores laying down surpressing fire, unless we're willing to discard something for it. Considering Single Knights can be focused down when called for and Triple Knights is a not popular build anymore...
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 13, 2020 18:58:24 GMT
So, list problems, we can't do both. It's either Zoeys with Exo/Exo/HG and min troops, or Zoeys and big troops with no Exo on ground (or remove HG somehow).
The main problem at hand is that the HG and Maleceptor compete for the same terrain spot, assuming you only have 1 LOS block terrain per deployment and the middle blockers. So the HG have to go into DS for Male/Mala to work. At first I figured Male is tanky enough to accept most damage, but then I had a Grav drop come in and 1-shot it when it's not supposed to - which cost me my game right there and then. So if Male is in play, he's priority number 1 for shooting armies affected by his aura to kill. He has to stay safe, so that he can keep everyone else safe.
I'm partial to having the big shooters on the table for 2 reasons - the first being that the mortal wound gen one has been fantastic for killing difficult elite troops. Like Elims, Intercessors, Zoanthropes, and Grotesques. The other is they can take heat off the Male if we can't hide him, and they can take double Adaptation for double mortal wounds or double 5++ depending on which is more important.
What I'm not keen is that a superheavy could have a shadowsord like gun and just blast everything to death with 1 or 2 shots, which is what happened to my poor SL + Exo + Pod, which were all blasted to death by the same model in the same turn. For normal circumstances though it definitely makes sense since Zoeys demand the same weapon attention when being 5+ to wound vs bolters.
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 23, 2020 16:53:29 GMT
Right so continuing on with the brainstorming a little, let's talk about the two new potential contenders on the scene - GK and Tau. Let's also talk about the new ITC missions a little. Based on study reading up Goonhammer on the new ITC missions. www.goonhammer.com/goonhammer-roundtable-the-new-itc-rules/Quick and generalist summary that can be made as follows: 1. Marines are easier to score against via killing, primarily through Reaper, and fringe cases of MFD. 2. Map Objectives are a bigger thing - Against a defensive list if we can survive, we can force them to scrum and chip at them. Against an aggressive list, they'll be aiming to finish scoring early on, so we can focus on killing their power more than their scoring ability since it's easier to catch up on the defensive. Basically, defensive lists come out on top, while Aggressive lists take a dumpster to the face. 3. If you dont build to survive going 2nd, with no way in hell to intercept it, then we can expect to be blown to pieces as soon as the game starts. 4. Kill Objectives got hurt a little, now being not stackable. That makes massive hordes a way bigger choice, since they cannot score their Reaper coincidentally while killing things. 5. T.Warriors got a bit of a bump not giving away objectives, which does make them a little more considerable. They're still easy to kill by comparison, but a lot less valuable per unit (only scoring 1 point per unit now instead of 4 previously). Builds revolving around 3 or 4 units of Warriors definitely look good, and including a unit of 2 doesnt seem bad either if you have no better Adaptation targets. `The cost is approx the same as for Zoeys, while getting some meagre melee and acceptable shooting output, but trading away the raw survivability. 6. In terms of objectives, Tyranids didnt get much in hand - we got a small jump for Recon since it's easy for us to max score it by T3, assuming T1 we dont have the movement to get 4 units across the middle of the map, since we only have 1 movement trick available without swarmlord. If we paired with Sentinels and Ridgerunners in a list, T2 max Recon is a very possible thing though. The character scoring we got could be something, since capping, Cast, Deny, HI are all part of the jig - even a Neurothrope could max it all, dont even need a Broodlord. But how likely is the Cast and Deny is anyone's guess, considering real casters get +1 or +4 or +6 or whatever the bonuses are to casting, making denies a really hard thing. BEL makes GSC a real contender though on that front, so we could theoretically max score 2 Secondaries by T3. So, by the large, we know that Defensive lists are going to have an advantage, and that means primarily Shooting Castles or really durable Mechanized lists that can score/fight for objectives will take center stage. RG lists will likely begin to fade away, because although they can go 1st and unload their damage, most successful lists will be able to mitigate their damage then shoot them to death, since the aggressive RG players will have offensive CTs instead of the usual Cover + NegHit, Cover being countered most of the time anyway in top lists. They can get a manageable T1 of scoring, but following up from there will be hard, since aggressive lists are punished and successful lists will push towards survivability and counter-punch. To the top of my mind that does say 3 particular lists are making it to the top - IH will still score well, they are just not impossible to score against going forward, but it's still not going to be an easy match for anyone, so they are not going anywhere. Tau takes the next bracket due to Ignore Cover, Super Drone Cover, Maxed Out Recon/KOTH scoring on T2, and their amazing new weapons/damage. FotHM is probably going to sit in 3rd since we can score easy Recons and BEL fast, with unexpectedly heavy resillience due to Male/Mala, and decent damage to reciprocate despite being a board control list. Eldar will be right behind us with tanky vehicles/Fliers and Shining Spears taking up the slot, shared with GK with their 2+ 4++ Paladins and Ignore Cover Ignore LOS shooting and the biggest Character Smite Star in the game holding centre ground easily if given the center (they wont be able to secure it often, but if they could they would probably be top tier since they have such amazing single unit mobility throughout the game). Let's talk about Tau. Tau got some huge buffs when it comes to Riptides and Crisis Suits particularly, making their output spectacularly consistent. Crisis Bodyguards can potentially melee as good as a 10 man Intercessor squad, imagine that (not that I think it'd be a popular build anyway though). Riptides got the best set of Septs they could ever ask for, getting a Ignore Heavy move and a rr1 if shooting at something with markerlights on it. This leaves them free to take Velocity Tracker and ATS on their Heavy Burst Cannons, meaning that they are super deadly on anything that has FLY keyword (Hitting Flyrants on a 2+ almost always and cant be outranged/kited - let that sink in, right?) This extends to Zoanthropes, hitting on 2+ S6 2D, 18 shots each. So that's 18 hits, 14Wounds, 5 fails for 2.5 dead each (meaning that 3 Riptides shooting into Zoeys will kill a unit on average). Male's useless here so Mala's your only defense, giving you a 3+ rr1 -so 14hits, 10Wounds, 3 fails for 1.5 dead each (meaning we can survive 3 Riptides into Zoeys fine). Assuming Drones are outfront to tank the Smites, we should be able to smite down a majority of the drones and expose Riptides to Exo and HG firem which is where we will wear them down fast. Riptides got another buff, to their Ion Cannon which now shoots at 6 shots S8 -4ap 3D base, and 6 shots S9 -4ap 3D+d3D overcharged. I expect this loadout to be popular on at least 1 Riptide, due to being a perfect Centurion killer in terms of damage output. Going into our army, it's 6 shots hitting on 3s rr1 for 5 hits, 5 wounds, 2 fails for 2 dead straight. Sounds scary, but not actually that scary - we will lose a unit of 3 shooting, but that combination will never wipe out the Gaunts fast enough. The next buffs they got were to missles, which we conveniently neglected. Hardened Warheads gives all their missles -1ap extra, so we're looking at -2 SMS from Riptides (Cover based defenses are basically null and avoid, thankfully our Adaptation ignores up to -2). More suitable is if they played the Broadside Macross Missle Massacre, which will push SMS to -2 and the HYMP to -3 (basically invalidating our Cover based builds and making troop Adaptation useless). This also goes onto Crisis Suits, although I think theirs are just Missle Pods and not HYMP (Still formidable - but luckily only at -2ap, meaning that anything other than the MMM we will still see some play). Crisis - Crisis got some sweet buffs. First up, they *can* ignore ap-1 and ap-2 if they took one guy with a single Air-Frag and gave him that special thing, making you deal with a T5 2+ W3 saves, possibly with a 4++ as well. It's a stupidly tanky model and unit in this way, but it's only one model. The other buff they got was a blanket rr1s to hit and wound for the entire unit, although this can also be taken on the commanders instead if you prefer to do that. After that, they have a new strategem to give them 5 markerlights on a target. So I can easily see a Missle based playstyle where you have Broadsides/Riptides doing their thing in missles, and a unit of Crisis are dropped on terrain or in the backline for a 1+sv/rear angle with Missle Pods blasting one thing out of the water. That's assuming that they do not go Farsight Enclave for the new Crisis love, which lets them get +1BS +1WS base, gives them a 5+++, +1 to hit on the drop, and access to Farsight himself for an easy rr to wound candidate. When dropped in danger close, they always get their markerlight effect for rr1s (so hitting on 2+ rr1s, and can be even against Fliers), immunity to Cyclic self damage due to +1 to hit, rr wound due to Farsight being around. Cyclic is one of the best profiles in the game barring -1ap, which is fine with weight of shots (let us not bring up base Cyclic profile, which is worse than an autocannon for more points...). Farsight also gets some decent artefact that gives a Commander a rr1s to hit and wound for himself, making a Farisght + Commander (FSE can take 2 Commanders in a detachment), 3 Breachers, Crisis Suits a valid and strong detachment for what you get out of it (hint: you get a LOT out of this). The only catch is how expensive it is, thankfully - so it's not omnipotent, and I think you can do this with the standard 3 Riptide list and Drones. We talked a lot about the new Tau stuff and how they hurt Zoeys (ref T.Warriors, going back to the Zoey math, each HBC Riptide kills 3.5 / 2.5 Warriors, which can be brought down by the new Warrior strategem turning HBCs to 1 damage. But on the flipside the new Ion Accelerator will just outright murder them with 5 dead Warriors per Riptide. I didnt adjust for the FLY/NO FLY difference. SMS with NO FLY difference barely does 1 damage per Riptide, while HYMP Broadsides get 8 shots, 4 hits, 3 wounds, 1.5-3 dead each). What about for our big bugs? Going back to the Zoey/Exo list, we will be looking at 4+ to hit, 4+ to wound, with a 5++. HBCs arent affected, nor are Missles (although SMS are, I doubt they shoot these at Exos). So the only weapons affected is basically the new Ion Accelerator, or the Cyclics. Ion Accelerator gets 6 shots, with 4 hits, 2 wounds, 2 fails so 10damage average (meaning they will do a big number on our big bugs in range, 72" range). Cyclics will do 6 hits, 5+ to wound for 2 wound, and assuming fail save, average 4 damage per Crisis. So if either of these two units pop up, we're probably losing an Exo straight up. The upside is that we're unlikely losing 2 Exos, so we do have a chance to turn it around. Now some things about Tyranid Warriors worries me - the first is that T. Warriors will die to ap-3, such as the Ion Accelerator and Pulse Lasers. We can mitigate the hurt with reduce 1 damage strategem if they're 3D, but can we afford to lose the Tyranid Warrior unit since we're not stopping it dying even with everything on? If we were fighting a mirrior for eg, we'd die to Exocrenes (make it less efficient at least), or against Ridgerunners and that ridiculous amount of Lascannons. Since cover is always going to be countered half the time, better to work with Leviathan. But Exocrenes want to be in Kronos for the damage boost, making it a bit difficult to cater everything you need (since Zoeys have a 3++, they can be Kronos without losing much). I want to dive into GK too but I havent read up on it yet. What I do know is that GK alone may be a good reason not to use Zoeys, because there's a high chance that you wont be able to get ANY casts through with more denies than you and a +1 to deny results (not to mention a 3d6 discard lowest if they really want to stop you). The huge amount of Bolters at S5 as well basically negates our main defense mechanism too. I believe they have a tonne of tricks up their sleeve, and big bolters and endless smites are only scratching the surface.
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 24, 2020 13:13:44 GMT
www.goonhammer.com/start-competing-grey-knights-tactics/First word: holy hell. There's a lot more in here than I thought. That 6-0 list that's all the rage is nasty too, basically I think only IF artillery lists will smoke it hard turn 1, everyone else is going to have such a tough time.
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Post by garg on Feb 25, 2020 21:12:09 GMT
Yea it sure looks pretty scary to pure Nids. I guess one could bring a Sanctus for exploding brains. TTT have a video of Lawrence Vs the winner of the GT with a modified broviathan
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 26, 2020 9:06:55 GMT
Yea it sure looks pretty scary to pure Nids. I guess one could bring a Sanctus for exploding brains. TTT have a video of Lawrence Vs the winner of the GT with a modified broviathan Got a link?
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Post by garg on Feb 26, 2020 12:09:41 GMT
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 27, 2020 5:59:24 GMT
Thanks - I realized that the GK army is extremely similar to mine, in that the main damage is dealt by smites and mortal wounds with some outright damage via Paladins that also tank (its inversed in that its distraction tank unit is its damage, while the mortals are the squishies at the back). It will be a good watch for me to learn. After weighing in that the Exos, while the most cost efficient gun platform + tank option, have the greatest problems today (LOS, easy to kill even with 5++, cannot trade into incoming invuls, not as good vs T7 and T8, can be outranged) I've decided to scrap them from my list, and fill it up with Gaunts instead of Zoeys. Unfortunately, I also have to drop 1 zoey from each squad to make room for said Gaunts. The main difference I'm looking at is HG in Kronos (and accept the Male is exposed) or in Jorm? Jorm makes me give up 30 Gaunts due to points restrictions (3 x 30 + other stuff is better than 4 x 1t or 3 x 30 + 1 x 17). The list with Gaunts is overall better as well - with Rippers only, scoring becomes a nightmare, because you can't tendril out to grab objectives cleanly. You could potentially score Recon / BEL but you lack the forward pressure to score on the actual objectives and bonuses. As a map control, slog list I think this is where it gets. 200 or 300 Gaunts is a skew list that works because of how armies aren't prepared to deal with it, but it is not fun and it's absolutely tiring trying to make it work for a slow player. Barring that, this is the next best. Option on the table. ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids) [35 PL, 5CP, 630pts] +++ Configuration +Detachment CP [5CP]Hive Fleet: Jormungandr + HQ +Broodlord [8 PL, 115pts]Neurothrope [4 PL, 90pts]: Warlord + Troops +Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 33pts]: 3x Ripper Swarm Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 33pts]: 3x Ripper Swarm Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 33pts]: 3x Ripper Swarm + Elites +Hive Guard [13 PL, 258pts]. Adaptive Physiology: Enhanced Resistance . 6x Hive Guard (Impaler): 6x Impaler Cannon + Fast Attack +Raveners [4 PL, 68pts]. Ravener: Deathspitter, 2x Scything Talons . Ravener: Deathspitter, 2x Scything Talons . Ravener: Devourer, 2x Scything Talons ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids) [77 PL, 8CP, 1,370pts] +++ Configuration +Battle-forged CP [3CP]Detachment CP [5CP]Hive Fleet: Leviathan + HQ +Malanthropes [5 PL, 120pts]. Malanthrope Neurothrope [4 PL, 90pts]+ Troops +Termagants [9 PL, 120pts]. 30x Termagant (Fleshborer) Termagants [9 PL, 120pts]. 30x Termagant (Fleshborer) Termagants [9 PL, 120pts]. 30x Termagant (Fleshborer) + Elites +Maleceptor [9 PL, 160pts]: Massive Scything Talons Zoanthropes [12 PL, 240pts]: 6x Zoanthrope Zoanthropes [10 PL, 200pts]: 5x Zoanthrope Zoanthropes [10 PL, 200pts]: 5x Zoanthrope ++ Total: [112 PL, 13CP, 2,000pts] ++Created with BattleScribe
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