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Post by brassangel on Oct 29, 2017 23:02:21 GMT
Tyrannofex still too expensive for what they do, imho. The change to OOE is really bad. Fixed Warlord traits for OOE and Swarmlord are bad. No change to Tyrant Guard is bad. Haruspex/Maleceptor not buffed enough. I get a feeling Toxicrene is going to be in the same boat. We don't know about the other two weapon options yet, but Rupture Cannon Tfexes look incredible. They're now effectively armed with six S10 lascannons, and BS4+ can easily be mitigated by a couple of Hive Fleet traits. OOE is interesting... while on the surface it looks like a nerf, remember there are several buffs for him, Behemoth and other fexes that quickly stack up: - OOE no longer needs a pod, can be screened with other fexes or even gaunts / rippers!
- Escort him with hormagaunts and use this Behemoth stratagem: roll a d6 for each charging model. for each 6 deal 1 mortal wound to the enemy unit it charged. for monsters its on a roll of 2+
- Escorting fexes can have a built-in -1 to hit
- They're also slightly cheaper, making up the extra points on OOE
- Re-roll charges trait
- Tail attacks are extra now
- Living Battering Ram is +1 to hit on the charge. Regular fexes near OOE could be hitting on 2+
- Relic scything talons for +1 S +1 A
- Behemoth re-roll charges trait
- Behemoth warlord trait is basically free toxin sacs OOE couldn't have before
Yeah, people keep forgetting that being a 9-wound character means he can hide now. As a buff, and himself killy, being able to hide makes him better. This is no different than when they took charge-after-flying away in 6th/7th and people claimed it was a nerf to Flyrants. Forgetting that he no longer was grounded on just hits, didn't fall and die, could now shoot 360 degrees, etc. Durability is always worth a bunch of points. If Guilliman were 10+ wounds, for example, he'd be terrible for 360 points because enemy shooting could just target him. It's the reason Bjorn is better than every other variant of Dreadnought. The character rule on something that buffs other units and is under 10-wounds is extremely valuable. |
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Post by brassangel on Oct 29, 2017 23:03:56 GMT
So far these minor changes are underwhelming, if true. I'm going to reserve judgement for the full release as there are still psychic powers, stratagems and entire units missing, but so far this seems like a minor bump to statlines instead of the reworking that half of the book needed. Some of the changes seem absurd like requiring 6 venomthropes (200 points) to get a crappier rule that other armies get for free army wide. Some units that were (please do not swear) before havent even changed, so those are already written off. Things like +1 BS on a carnifex means nothing when other armies have since obtained -1 to shooting rolls, so theyre just back to where they started 4 months ago, except requiring a 10 point upgrade. I dont even care too much about the power level of the book. The worst thing so far though is that, given what we know, this book doesnt add any Tyranid flavour. Death Guard, Imperial Guard, Eldar...they all add a bunch of fun stuff. The closest thing so far seems to be the Hive Fleet (that doesnt even have a clear rule at the moment) giving you a tunnel or something. Where are the rules that allow Tyranids to swarm from different table edges to encircle enemies? Where are the rules to create an endless swarm of small bugs (even Death Guard have something similar with the Dead Shall Walk Again)? How about a rule where the more enemy models you eat and absorb, the stronger your units get? Why is it that in an edition where every army has a ton of hero auras, the army that is designed around having big bugs buff small bugs has practically nothing? Where is old adversary, hive commander, poison on all gaunts, etc? The old debuffs of lash whips and paroxysm are near useless, and things like psychic scream just do generic wounds now. Death Guard have more Tyranid flavour than Tyranids do. Cloud of Flies (unit cannot be shot at for 1 turn), The Dead Shall Walk Again (free swarm units), -T to enemies auras, reroll hits auras, reroll wounds auras, +1 cover auras, buffing allied S and T spells, etc. It looks to me that they took the stale index, changed some points around, and added in a few generic space marine chapter tactics. These are changes that couldve been added in a general's handbook equivalent. The only thing that is exciting for me out of what has been leaked are the new Carnifex unit profiles. I really hope the other spells, stratagems and units like Tervigons add something unique. Points drops across the board, good strategems (180 shot devilgants don't care about your conscript and brimstone screens), reroll charge distance traits, rupture cannon is effectively 6 shots S10 -3ap d6 damage, 50(?) point cost drop on hausperex, etc. Very underwhelming, indeed lol. Wtf were you expecting? Come ON. It's already a better book than we've had since 4th. Well said. It took a strong index army (I was already beating Astra Militarum with my nids) and made it better, cheaper, and more flavorful all in one. |
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Post by gigasnail on Oct 29, 2017 23:06:51 GMT
N.I.B. yeah, one hive fleet per detachment would be the thing to do.
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Post by gigasnail on Oct 29, 2017 23:07:52 GMT
And yes, I'll take my 200 point untargetable OOE and laugh while I do it, please and thank you.
but, people like to find reasons to be upset. Work out.
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Post by brassangel on Oct 29, 2017 23:07:54 GMT
hahaha, I started writing a response to this but I am glad I stopped. You said it much more succinctly. There has never been a better example of me reading something and starting to agree with it and then being like "nah, all credibility lost," as this one sentence brought about. Im going to make a solo reply to this, because Im not going to have this derail an 8th edition codex thread. The biggest problem design wise for Tyranids 5th was that Elite choices that were not Hive Guard and Zoans could not be played because of the tank meta. Some things that made 5th edition Tyranids amazing (and wish 8th had some of) include: -4+ cover save army wide, abusing small bug attachments to monsters (+ wound allocation abuse) and gargoyle screens to the others that could not benefit from the abuse, essentially doubling the durability of the army -4+ Feel No Pain -4+ Poison everywhere, making little bugs a massive threat (especially when combined with Old Adversary reroll all hits - hormagaunts that could demolish elite units before they could even swing) -2+ armour save on Hive Tyrant, negating all missiles -Tervigons creating free screening/objective camper units -Paroxysm that could cripple even the most powerful unit in the game to WS1 and BS1. -Outflanking Stealers to tie up heavy weapon teams and tanks, or to force clustering -Hive Tyrant and Tervigons with massive army buffs -Lash Whips that made enemies I1 -Hive Guard being an absolute steal I played Tyranids at tournaments in 5th all the time and had incredible success with them. From what I had seen with other Tyranid players at tournaments, online batreps and forums, the problem is people didnt abuse the things listed above. Instead they spammed flying hive tyrants (with a 3+ missile bait save & no cover) and tervigons, because thats what the internet told them to do. To no surprise, a bunch of garbage termagaunts and a dead hive tyrant couldnt carry games. Units like hormagaunts, genestealers and carnifex were written off as overpriced instead of used in synergy with the rest of the army and abused with allocation. Again, I'm not going to reply anything else on 5th as I've said what I need to say about that book. Everything you just wasted time typing was irrelevant for two reasons: 1) Different game and different rules set now. What any army used to do from 3rd through 7th no longer applies or carries over. 2) Tyranids had the lowest tournament win percentage of any army in 5th, and only had a single viable build with Tervigons and Hive Guard. That's it. And once people figured out shooting Tervigons was easy, we went from Tier 3 to beneath 50-feet of (please do not swear). This version is already proving stronger (high results from the likes of Geoff Robinson, Llama, etc), and with more variable builds in the index than we've ever had. So far the codex is 100% better, more flavorful, and more diverse than the index. |
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Post by able on Oct 29, 2017 23:10:15 GMT
I'm glad for everything that gets a bit more powerful, but slightly bummed about the lack of unique feel/character in the leaked rules, and the seemingly lack of synergy between large and small units. Plus it looks like we will want to mix Hive Fleets, which I'm not sure how it's done, or even possible. Is that one Hive Fleet per detachment? Anyway, what about Synapse - does it still provide Fearless to friendly Tyranids? And -1 to enemy psyker tests? One hive fleet per detachment to get the buff, as with other armies. The difficulty is that synapse is hive fleet tied too, so it would get really confusing to have more than one. The hive fleet tactics do all give a pretty different feel, and the lists the benefit are all very different. For example, fall back and charge is huge on flyers who can shoot anyway, so to make the most of that a flyer heavy list is built. Reroll ones if you don't move is not a huge buff, but rewards static play. The character might not jump out on reading, but when building and playing a list you will find the character is there. |
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Post by jesses on Oct 29, 2017 23:14:30 GMT
Yah, that charge after falling back trait is insanely good on a flying list. Flyrants, Crones, Harpies, and Gargoyles will love it. Can see a Skyblight-esque list doing well.
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Post by acehilator on Oct 29, 2017 23:18:57 GMT
And yes, I'll take my 200 point untargetable OOE and laugh while I do it, please and thank you. but, people like to find reasons to be upset. Work out. C'mon now. You know that a Broodlord is WAY better than the new OOE, even when not using any Genestealers. Unless you are running a metric ton of melee/hybrid Fexes with OOE. |
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Post by xtztxtxz on Oct 29, 2017 23:20:55 GMT
I'm glad for everything that gets a bit more powerful, but slightly bummed about the lack of unique feel/character in the leaked rules, and the seemingly lack of synergy between large and small units. Plus it looks like we will want to mix Hive Fleets, which I'm not sure how it's done, or even possible. Is that one Hive Fleet per detachment? Anyway, what about Synapse - does it still provide Fearless to friendly Tyranids? And -1 to enemy psyker tests? One hive fleet per detachment to get the buff, as with other armies. The difficulty is that synapse is hive fleet tied too, so it would get really confusing to have more than one. The hive fleet tactics do all give a pretty different feel, and the lists the benefit are all very different. For example, fall back and charge is huge on flyers who can shoot anyway, so to make the most of that a flyer heavy list is built. Reroll ones if you don't move is not a huge buff, but rewards static play. The character might not jump out on reading, but when building and playing a list you will find the character is there. I heard a rumour last week (from someone talking about us getting 'more durable' HTs) that we have a stratagem to switch Hive Fleet traits mid-game. Here's hoping our friend seeg can confirm soon |
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Post by arapaima on Oct 29, 2017 23:24:51 GMT
Thank you so much seeg, you're a champ.
How does the colour scheme of the new hivefleet looks like?
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Post by stonehorse on Oct 29, 2017 23:30:37 GMT
I heard a rumour last week (from someone talking about us getting 'more durable' HTs) that we have a stratagem to switch Hive Fleet traits mid-game. Here's hoping our friend seeg can confirm soon That would be brilliant, a true reflection on Tyranid adaptability. It would be very strong, I imagine the cost for it would be very high. Fingers crossed! |
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Post by jesses on Oct 29, 2017 23:34:12 GMT
And yes, I'll take my 200 point untargetable OOE and laugh while I do it, please and thank you. but, people like to find reasons to be upset. Work out. C'mon now. You know that a Broodlord is WAY better than the new OOE, even when not using any Genestealers. Unless you are running a metric ton of melee/hybrid Fexes with OOE. Currently OOE kicks a Broodlords arse in terms of damage output, whether OOE still will is an open question since we don't have full rules for either. |
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Post by shadowfinder on Oct 29, 2017 23:41:49 GMT
And yes, I'll take my 200 point untargetable OOE and laugh while I do it, please and thank you. but, people like to find reasons to be upset. Work out. C'mon now. You know that a Broodlord is WAY better than the new OOE, even when not using any Genestealers. Unless you are running a metric ton of melee/hybrid Fexes with OOE. A 9 wound MC that can heal itself, cause other units around to do mortal wounds vs a Brood lord.... I take OOE every-time. Walking Fex's up the board with OOE and a Mal should give you can solid mid field threat while you attack with everything else. Complete rules will rule the day. Looking forward to making a few fex's should be good. A pure fex army could be fun to play. |
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Post by omnivore on Oct 29, 2017 23:51:40 GMT
Yeah first of all thanks Seeg for all the info! it's nice that we have so much to talk about so soon  Overall I don't see anything jaw-dropping with these leaks, save perhaps the ability to have several Neurothropes. Overall it looks like it will b e fun, if not super powerful. I guess I need to see all the parts before I can really put it all together. There are so many different aspects and combos that it will take me time to find them. That said, deep-striking a winged Tyrant 9" from an enemy character, casting Smite and Psychic Scream on them, followed by a d6 auto-hit burst from the new Miasma Cannon, followed by a 2d6+1" charge re-rollable is appealing... |
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Post by Kharnx on Oct 29, 2017 23:54:02 GMT
Im going to make a solo reply to this, because Im not going to have this derail an 8th edition codex thread. The biggest problem design wise for Tyranids 5th was that Elite choices that were not Hive Guard and Zoans could not be played because of the tank meta. Some things that made 5th edition Tyranids amazing (and wish 8th had some of) include: -4+ cover save army wide, abusing small bug attachments to monsters (+ wound allocation abuse) and gargoyle screens to the others that could not benefit from the abuse, essentially doubling the durability of the army -4+ Feel No Pain -4+ Poison everywhere, making little bugs a massive threat (especially when combined with Old Adversary reroll all hits - hormagaunts that could demolish elite units before they could even swing) -2+ armour save on Hive Tyrant, negating all missiles -Tervigons creating free screening/objective camper units -Paroxysm that could cripple even the most powerful unit in the game to WS1 and BS1. -Outflanking Stealers to tie up heavy weapon teams and tanks, or to force clustering -Hive Tyrant and Tervigons with massive army buffs -Lash Whips that made enemies I1 -Hive Guard being an absolute steal I played Tyranids at tournaments in 5th all the time and had incredible success with them. From what I had seen with other Tyranid players at tournaments, online batreps and forums, the problem is people didnt abuse the things listed above. Instead they spammed flying hive tyrants (with a 3+ missile bait save & no cover) and tervigons, because thats what the internet told them to do. To no surprise, a bunch of garbage termagaunts and a dead hive tyrant couldnt carry games. Units like hormagaunts, genestealers and carnifex were written off as overpriced instead of used in synergy with the rest of the army and abused with allocation. Again, I'm not going to reply anything else on 5th as I've said what I need to say about that book. Everything you just wasted time typing was irrelevant for two reasons: 1) Different game and different rules set now. What any army used to do from 3rd through 7th no longer applies or carries over. 2) Tyranids had the lowest tournament win percentage of any army in 5th, and only had a single viable build with Tervigons and Hive Guard. That's it. And once people figured out shooting Tervigons was easy, we went from Tier 3 to beneath 50-feet of (please do not swear). This version is already proving stronger (high results from the likes of Geoff Robinson, Llama, etc), and with more variable builds in the index than we've ever had. So far the codex is 100% better, more flavorful, and more diverse than the index. Some of these replies, holy smokes. This one is my favourite so far though. The first sentence telling me i wasted my time really encourages discussion and bringing in opposing viewpoints. The second, that past editions are irrelevant, is stating something that is obvious to everyone and completely ignores the fact that my post was a reply specifically to the 5th edition power level of nids. The third sentence about the statistics in % of wins has no weight when tyranids are already underrepresented, have (had) a high skill floor & ceiling in both list preparation and execution, and people regurgitated the internet's ridiculous Tervigon spam nonsense....like you just did (LOL). And the fourth sentence is declaring the new book to have the highest amount of variety and power in a rule set that was only partially leaked 4 hours ago. I can see by some of these replies why so many people have struggled on here. Wow. |
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Overall I don't see anything jaw-dropping with these leaks, save perhaps the ability to have several Neurothropes. Overall it looks like it will b e fun, if not super powerful. I guess I need to see all the parts before I can really put it all together. There are so many different aspects and combos that it will take me time to find them.