Creating an Apoc Event! [Peer Review Requested]

[voltaire26]

Set Up:

One person will be chosen by their teammates to represent their side as Warmaster. The Warmaster will make rolls for their side, place objectives and coordinate stratagems, in addition to placing the bid for turn. Most importantly it is this person’s job to time the opposing team’s turn. Each team starts with the collective number of command points based upon their detachments ONLY (to provide a fair base). There is no limit to the number of detachments that you can have. Before the game begins, the Warmaster of each team places a bid of Command Points. The team that bid the most gets to go first (no seizing), but allows the opposing team to start with the amount of Command Points that they bid. In the event of a tie, both teams receive their command points and the decision for first turn goes to the highest dice roll. The team that did not win the first turn, gets to place the first objective, alternating for each objective. Objectives must be more than 6” from the table ledge and more than 12” from another objective. Each player then appoints their Warlord. A Warlord must meet the following criteria:

The model falls under the HQ category

The model is a scoring model

The model must have more than 9 wounds, if no model is available for such roll, then any model that meets the above criteria may be picked, but are easily identifiable and can be targeted even if there are models that are closer to the shooting unit.

The Warmaster’s Warlord becomes an objective worth 3 command points. Everyone else’s Warlord is worth 1CP. Objectives are worth 2CP for any within 12” of your deployment zone, 3CP for any greater than 12” from your deployment zone and 4CP for any that reside in your opponent’s deployment zone. Objectives are scored at the end of each player's turn.


Terrain and Cover:

Terrain and Cover follows the normal rules from the regular rulebook as described on page 181



Claiming an Objective:

A side controls an objective marker if they have more models within 6” of the center of it than their opponent. Any special rules regarding claiming objectives, such as the Space Marines ability “Defenders of Humanity” apply. Objectives are scored at the end of each turn and unless otherwise stated, are scored based on the following criteria:

Within 12” of your deployment zone: 2CP

Outside 18” of your deployment zone: 3CP

Within your opponents deployment zone 4CP


Stratagems:

(2CP) Smoke Screen:

“A thick barricade of smoke protects your troops advance” The opponent must subtract 1 from any hit rolls when shooting at your units if they are more than 12” away. This does not apply to Titanic or Behemoths.

(3CP) Camouflage:

Nominate a friendly HQ unit. All friendly models within 24” are treated as if they are in cover. Note this does not apply to Titanic or Behemoths. (add one to any save rolls that they make, unless stated otherwise)

(6CP) Shield Generator:

Use this Stratagem at the start of the enemies turn. Place a marker anywhere more than 6” away from an enemy model. No unit that has a majority of it’s model’s wholly within 6” of the marker, can be targeted by shooting attacks this turn. At the end of the turn, remove the marker.

(8CP) Orbital Strike:

“The ships of your fleet are poised to turn their weapons upon the foe” Pick a point on the board, all units within 10” of this point must make a save roll against the following profile:

Name::Strength::Rend::Damage

|Orbital Strike|8|-6|3d6|

Damage must be continuously allocated until the unit takes all of the damage dealt or the unit is wiped out

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What should be changed/Removed and what do you think still needs to be added. There is going to be a world ending scenario going on in addition to this, but I don't have that drafted up yet. Alot of this is a changed version of NGC40k's Apoc rules spun to fit my needs

[No One]

voltaire26 said:

The model must have more than 9 wounds, if no model is available for such roll, then any model that meets the above criteria may be picked, but are easily identifiable and can be targeted even if there are models that are closer to the shooting unit.

This seems...odd. Not least because most armies won't have someone with 10+ wounds as an HQ. But also because it restricts it to potentially odd choices (IG - take Creed. Tank Commander is your WL. OK?), and will also have a likely very detrimental effect if your WL is <10 wounds (take Guilliman. Blown out of the water T1). So, it discourages taking your WL as the most Warlordy guy in your army, and is instead just the guy you care least about losing/the hardest to kill.

The Warmaster’s Warlord becomes an objective worth 3 command points. Everyone else’s Warlord is worth 1CP. Objectives are worth 2CP for any within 12” of your deployment zone, 3CP for any greater than 12” from your deployment zone and 4CP for any that reside in your opponent’s deployment zone. Objectives are scored at the end of each player's turn.
...
Within 12” of your deployment zone: 2CP

Outside 18” of your deployment zone: 3CP

Within your opponents deployment zone 4CP

Not sure why objectives are worth CP? Is CP your 'victory' condition? Or is it literally just 'kill everything' and CP are to be used to do that more effectively? Because I think both are potentially poor - the first is seems really bad, while the second is...neat in theory, but I'd be concerned about the game just not ending. I'm also not sure how much it'd actually encourage objective gameplay, but anyway.

Each player then appoints their Warlord. A Warlord must meet the following criteria:

Does everyone get a WL trait? Because everyone, say, picking a '5+ refund CP whenever using a CP' is pretty broken.

Stratagems:

(2CP) Smoke Screen:

“A thick barricade of smoke protects your troops advance” The opponent must subtract 1 from any hit rolls when shooting at your units if they are more than 12” away. This does not apply to Titanic or Behemoths.

Scalability is a massive concern for such big games. This...throws that out the window without a care. Like, I'd say 2 CP for -1 to hit would probably be balanced at 2k. But this isn't 2k (I'm not actually sure what the pts level is though). And it has no scaling of cost - it's affecting a much larger amount of units. I just don't think 'affects everything' abilities are good for apoc. I'd probably make it similar to the shield gen strat - pick one point, everything within, say, 24" gets -1 to hit. 3 CP.

Or, if you want to affect everything, have it be higher cost, once only.

(6CP) Shield Generator:

Use this Stratagem at the start of the enemies turn. Place a marker anywhere more than 6” away from an enemy model. No unit that has a majority of it’s model’s wholly within 6” of the marker, can be targeted by shooting attacks this turn. At the end of the turn, remove the marker.

'You can't shoot me' is not a game rule I like. Being able to apply it to whoever you want even, say, Reavers/Warlords? I'd be concerned about this turning into a 'whoever runs out of CP first' while Titans blow up everything else. Maybe something less arbitrary - every model (possibly wholly) within 6/9" gets +1 sv. Or something similar to Void Shields - 4++ that works on MW (then it doesn't give anything to Titans - whether that's good or bad, well...)

(8CP) Orbital Strike:

“The ships of your fleet are poised to turn their weapons upon the foe” Pick a point on the board, all units within 10” of this point must make a save roll against the following profile:

Name::Strength::Rend::Damage

|Orbital Strike|8|-6|3d6|

Damage must be continuously allocated until the unit takes all of the damage dealt or the unit is wiped out

I'd probably just do MW like similar stratagems, then you don't have the weird spill-over of damage from a normal hit. Also lets you tweak it so it's less binary based on the wound roll if desired.

As it stands...well, it's likely got the ability to wipe out basically everything not T8+/good invul (or massed infantry) in a decent area, including Characters. But...Apoc, so...

Also, really think it should be once per game only.

[voltaire26]

This seems...odd. Not least because most armies won't have someone with 10+ wounds as an HQ. But also because it restricts it to potentially odd choices (IG - take Creed. Tank Commander is your WL. OK?), and will also have a likely very detrimental effect if your WL is <10 wounds (take Guilliman. Blown out of the water T1). So, it discourages taking your WL as the most Warlordy guy in your army, and is instead just the guy you care least about losing/the hardest to kill.

I agree, it was to prevent some cheesy situations, but I think it would probably be best to remove the constraint. Although, how do you feel about the other constraints of being an HQ and being a scoring unit

Not sure why objectives are worth CP? Is CP your 'victory' condition? Or is it literally just 'kill everything' and CP are to be used to do that more effectively? Because I think both are potentially poor - the first is seems really bad, while the second is...neat in theory, but I'd be concerned about the game just not ending. I'm also not sure how much it'd actually encourage objective gameplay, but anyway.

Glad you noticed this! It's something we KNOW doesn't feel right, but feel it's going in the right direction! Yes, CP is the victory condition of this game. However, we want the Strategems to be high risk high reward options for teams as using one takes away from you ability to win the game. What doesn't feel right is the amount that some armies can spam, so we're looking into a fix for that. Until then...stay posted. If you have any idea's please pass them along, we're willing to hear anything out! Right now, while we are REALLY opposed to it, we're looking at limiting Detachments to 7 or 8, preventing some problems but creating a whole lot more.

Does everyone get a WL trait? Because everyone, say, picking a '5+ refund CP whenever using a CP' is pretty broken.

Currently, no. Right now, we're planning on playing without Warlord Traits until we balance the "main" Apoc rules and get them into a place where we like them. After that, we're looking into expanding the reach of the game like the previous edition did 
 

Scalability is a massive concern for such big games. This...throws that out the window without a care. Like, I'd say 2 CP for -1 to hit would probably be balanced at 2k. But this isn't 2k (I'm not actually sure what the pts level is though). And it has no scaling of cost - it's affecting a much larger amount of units. I just don't think 'affects everything' abilities are good for apoc. I'd probably make it similar to the shield gen strat - pick one point, everything within, say, 24" gets -1 to hit. 3 CP.



Or, if you want to affect everything, have it be higher cost, once only.

This kind of ties in with fixing how Command Points feel in the game from above. This was intended push the limits of the game, something we probably shouldn't be messing with until we have a better write up of the rules, but needless to say is here. While I understand where your coming from, we want to test it before we increase it. We wanted it to be fairly cheap, as it gives something for you to use. It's on our radar, but will be tested before we make any changes to it. Personally, I think that decreasing the amount that objectives are worth, while a slippery slope, could fix part of the problem in this one. Thanks for the feedback!
 

'You can't shoot me' is not a game rule I like. Being able to apply it to whoever you want even, say, Reavers/Warlords? I'd be concerned about this turning into a 'whoever runs out of CP first' while Titans blow up everything else. Maybe something less arbitrary - every model (possibly wholly) within 6/9" gets +1 sv. Or something similar to Void Shields - 4++ that works on MW (then it doesn't give anything to Titans - whether that's good or bad, well...)

The wording on that one is a little wack, I agree. In addition, the sizing may need to be fixed, but the focus was that if that circle didn't cover at least 50% of your base for single model units or 50% of all your models in your unit, then you can still be targeted. I'm not sure what the base size on a reaver is off the top of my head (if it has an official one?). But I think this would either be just enough or a little under in most situations, with Warlords being way out. Your concern that 'whoever runs out of CP first' will just blow everything up is justified, however, realize that they have given up all or almost all of their victory condition for destructibility. If they can turn that into a win, good for them. But if the opposing team still has a leg up, they will win despite the number of models on the board. If they turn that into a win far more consistently that is good, then it needs to be refined.

I'd probably just do MW like similar stratagems, then you don't have the weird spill-over of damage from a normal hit. Also lets you tweak it so it's less binary based on the wound roll if desired.



As it stands...well, it's likely got the ability to wipe out basically everything not T8+/good invul (or massed infantry) in a decent area, including Characters. But...Apoc, so...



Also, really think it should be once per game only.

Mortal wounds were something that got bounced around a lot here. The origin of this Stratagem was to open pockets for your team to be able to deepstrike into. Killing a lot of stuff is required for that to happen. Given another look at it, Mortal Wounds are probably the way to go. Without going to much into the hows and why's of this Stratagem, mortal wounds were cut for a particular reason, but that reason is no longer in the rules we have written...Good catch. It will get bounced off our group, but I imagine it will be accepted warmly. 

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All in all, these are just the "base" rules for the event. If we can get enough testing in with all of these before our next Apoc game in December, then we might be able to through some world ending events like last edition! 

Thank you SO MUCH for your feedback. If anything I said doesn't make sense feel free to ask me to clarify anything and I'll be happy to do so! 

[No One]

voltaire26 said:

I agree, it was to prevent some cheesy situations, but I think it would probably be best to remove the constraint. Although, how do you feel about the other constraints of being an HQ and being a scoring unit

HQ: Not sure - on the one hand, it prevents your 'big honcho' commanders that'd really be leading a big apoc force like this (i.e. LoW like the Primarchs). On the other hand...it prevents your LoW being commanders . Which could open up rather large balance issues (e.g. named greater demons). So...playing it safe with just HQ seems a reasonable middle ground?
Scoring: Well, apart from the fact that I think it's redundant with HQ (i.e. I can only think of Flyers and Spores which aren't scoring, neither of which are HQ). But on the off chance that there's something, seems a reasonable restriction. Non-scoring is usually indicative of something really odd, and really odd doesn't really a commander make.

Glad you noticed this! It's something we KNOW doesn't feel right, but feel it's going in the right direction! Yes, CP is the victory condition of this game. However, we want the Strategems to be high risk high reward options for teams as using one takes away from you ability to win the game. What doesn't feel right is the amount that some armies can spam, so we're looking into a fix for that. Until then...stay posted. If you have any idea's please pass them along, we're willing to hear anything out! Right now, while we are REALLY opposed to it, we're looking at limiting Detachments to 7 or 8, preventing some problems but creating a whole lot more.

Hmm...I think the idea behind the risk/reward of being able to spend your victory conditions for powerful in game effects is neat. The bit that I really don't like, is that you can get a large portion of your victory conditions from listbuilding depending on army (and not in an 'I build for the mission' way, just an 'I can spam cheap stuff in every slot' way).

e.g:
This is a sort of half decent list that could be spammed with tweaks, for 9 CP.

SPOILER: Click to show

Tempestus prime
Tempestus prime
Company commander
Tempestus command squad (4xplasma)
Tempestus command squad (4xplasma)
Astropath
Scions (2xplasma)
Scions (2xplasma)
Conscripts (20)
Conscripts (20)
Conscripts (20)
Guardsmen (plasma, lascannon)
Manticore
Manticore
Manticore
Sentinel
Sentinel
Sentinel

Repeat 4 times for ~5k and 36 CP already.


Or, you know:

SPOILER: Click to show

3xCompany commander
3xAstropath
6xGuardsmen
3xmortar HWT
3xSentinel

609 pts for 9 CP. <5k for 7 dets and 63 CP. For them to not basically auto win off that T1 you'd need a very high CP count required and/or a lot of objectives.

I don't think det limiting it really solves anything, it just shifts the problem to 'who can field the most/best brigades'. Which...Imp soup, really.

What you may be able to do...have the objectives give 'super CP' which you can use on 'super Stratagems', and that are also your Victory conditions? Dunno. Then you should be better able to tweak objective/costs based on known quantities. But...does mean you couldn't use anything T1. I suppose you could give 3 to everyone - has the (subjective) bonus of leaving the high cost stratagems to mid/late game, to keep the 'everything's dying' feel going, and reward early game objective holding, while not just nuking everything from T1 or whatever, while still leaving some defensive strats for T1. Doesn't mesh at all with the idea of 'betting' CP, though I suppose you could still do that with normal CP? Wouldn't be worth as much, but they're still useful.

Just some thoughts.

*Snip on Smoke Screen*

Hmm, in the context of it being the Victory conditions, it feels...better. But it's still...well. Compare it to the next one: +1 CP to affect likely much less of your army (unless everything's somehow ended up <12" and shooting at you), with arguably a worse buff (I mean, it depends what you're facing and what's getting hit - but I'd prefer -1 to hit vs good AP IG, for example, which I'd expect to see a lot of in apoc).

The wording on that one is a little wack, I agree. In addition, the sizing may need to be fixed, but the focus was that if that circle didn't cover at least 50% of your base for single model units or 50% of all your models in your unit, then you can still be targeted. I'm not sure what the base size on a reaver is off the top of my head (if it has an official one?). But I think this would either be just enough or a little under in most situations, with Warlords being way out. Your concern that 'whoever runs out of CP first' will just blow everything up is justified, however, realize that they have given up all or almost all of their victory condition for destructibility. If they can turn that into a win, good for them. But if the opposing team still has a leg up, they will win despite the number of models on the board. If they turn that into a win far more consistently that is good, then it needs to be refined.

Ah, had missed the model had to be wholly within, that helps on the reaver/warlord, yeah. Again, in the context of using pseudo-VP for it, I'm less against the strength of the effect, but I still don't like 'you can't shoot me, nyeh' as a mechanic . Which is where I prefer the idea of a strong defensive buff, but *shrug* that's just me .

[voltaire26]

Changes have gone through the group last night and are up for review again. We're still reviewing Strategems, but feel like the Orbital Strike needs to be cheaper, though never cheaper than where is was now. A few more reasons for changes can be found in the changelog.

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Set Up:

One person will be chosen by their teammates to represent their side as Warmaster. The Warmaster will make rolls for their side, place objectives and coordinate stratagems, in addition to placing the bid for turn. Most importantly it is this person’s job to time the opposing team’s turn.Before the game begins, the Warmaster of each team places a bid of Command Points. The team that bid the most gets to go first (no seizing), but allows the opposing team to start with the amount of Command Points that they bid. In the event of a tie, both teams receive their command points and the decision for first turn goes to the highest dice roll. The team that did not win the first turn, gets to place the first objective, alternating for each objective. Objectives must be more than 6” from the table ledge and more than 12” from another objective. Each player then appoints their Warlord. The Warmaster’s Warlord becomes an objective to kill, worth 3 command points. Everyone else’s Warlord is worth 1CP.



Terrain and Cover:

Terrain and Cover follows the normal rules from the regular rulebook as described on page 181



Claiming an Objective:

A side controls an objective marker if they have more models within 6” of the center of it than their opponent. Any special rules regarding claiming objectives, such as the Space Marines ability “Defenders of Humanity” apply. Objectives are scored at the end of each turn and unless otherwise stated, are scored based on the following criteria:

Within 12” of your deployment zone: 1CP

Outside 18” of your deployment zone: 2CP

Within your opponents deployment zone 4CP



Stratagems:

(2CP) Camouflage:

Nominate a friendly HQ unit. All friendly models within 24” are treated as if they are in cover. Note this does not apply to Titanic or Behemoths. (add one to any save rolls that they make, unless stated otherwise)



(3CP) Smoke Screen:

“A thick barricade of smoke protects your troops advance” The opponent must subtract 1 from any hit rolls when shooting at your units if they are more than 12” away. This does not apply to Titanic or Behemoths.



(4CP) Shield Generator:

Use this Stratagem at the start of the enemies turn. Place a marker anywhere more than 6” away from an enemy model. No unit that has a majority of it’s model’s wholly within 6” of the marker, can be targeted by shooting attacks this turn. At the end of the turn, remove the marker.



(5CP) Orbital Strike:

“The ships of your fleet are poised to turn their weapons upon the foe” Pick a point on the board, all units within 10” of this point take 3d6 Mortal Wounds

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Change log:

Date Approved: 10/14/17

-Removed limit number 3 on Warlords (Must have more than 10 wounds)

Reason: The chance of this happening was slim to none. As No One pointed out, the inclusion of this point makes the game feel clunky and leaves a rather bad taste in the mouth when you make your warlord someone who isn’t “Warlordy”


-Removed the detachment requirement

Reason: Will monitor closely, not sure this is what is best for the game, but feel right given the scale. Games will still be balanced based on either Power Level or Points (player’s choice)


-Removed Command Points pre-game

Reason: Again as No One pointed out, things can get out of hand EXTREMELY quickly, this did not reflect how we wanted the game to be approached.


-Objectives are now worth 1,2, and 4 rather than 2,3, and 4 respectively

Reason: Chance on numbers getting to high, decreased to fix that potential problem.

-Orbital Strike now deals flat 3d6 Mortal wounds rather than needing a save roll

Reason: Having to make save rolls added extra complexity to the game that was no longer needed. Using Mortal Wounds makes more sense. The damage may need to be changed to reflect it’s new uses.


-Smoke Screen now costs 3CP (up from 2)

Reason: Smoke screen was clearly better than Camouflage, while costing less. This point change is to reflect that


-Camouflage now costs 2CP (down from 3)

Reason: Camouflage is now cheaper than Smoke Screen as better represented by its limitations.


-Shield Generator now costs 4CP (down from 6)

Reason: With the changes to how CP works. This Stratagem costed to much for it’s effect and probably would not be chosen over the alternative options.
Under review

-Orbital Strike now costs 5CP (Down from 8)

Reason: Now more reasonably priced based on changes to CP.
Under review
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As always, if I did a bad job explaining things or you have some idea's of your own, feel free to post them! This is still a WIP so nothing is set in stone (I mean look at all those changes!) and things can always be tweeked, changed, or removed!. Big shout out to No One for the first wave of changes (despite some of them going against his viewpoint)! What do you all think?