Possible Conscript Nerf

[Hive Tyrant Qiln]

According to a youtube channel that has supposedly gotten the codex early (MordianGlory), conscripts have been limited to a 30 man unit and can only be affected by any orders issued to them on a 4+.

[Hive Bahamut]

50% of the time I was right every time if that's the case. All it took was the word "undisciplined" to understand that was incoming. I was expecting no orders at all, but that would make Imperial Soup players whine, and we can't have that. 4+ with a reroll is what? 65-75%?

30 strong is a little confusing, what did they think the number was the problem? Now they *must* just fill out more troops slots instead. *bummer* If it was because the 50 footprint was too big for buffs, just remove orders altogether.

Sometimes this overcomplicated catering they do for Imperial just makes no sense. You mean to tell me NO ONE thought a squad that takes up deployment for 150 points that can get buffed to divinity is bad? In fact, that whole index missed the boat. NO ONE SAW THEM TABLE EVERYONE??!!

[Jabberwocky]

I think it's a good move.

Many people have praised the play style as it's very fluffy. This doesn't nerf it into the ground but it does give people a chance against it.

[acehilator]

4+ would be still too good. Even without orders they are the best bubblewrap in the game (3 points + Commissars), no need to give them above average damage output. This is getting annoying.

[endgame422]

Community site confirms this is the case. Orders on a 4+ and max size of 30 models.
I guess the real bonus is if they fail the 4+ they refuse orders for the rest of the turn, so they can't just use the commander to try again if they fail.
Not a huge Nerf but i will take what I can get I guess

[killercroc]

I think the price was the issue not the squad size. Limiting them down to 30 but keeping them the same will just make IG players take 5 squads of 30 instead of 3 squads of 50. It doesn't change the amount of bodies on the field and most IG characters give aura buffs so not quite sure what the change really was. The 4+ to receive orders is nice though, I mean it would be better if they couldn't even be given orders to really drive home the concept of conscripts and make Infantry squads matter but ehh.

[Hive Bahamut]

This was how I saw it too.. So now instead of 3 squads of 50 it's 6 squads of 25/30. You actually don't lose out any orders really, (I assume 6 @ 50% is close enough to 3) and it just made their cheap Brigade even more Tempting.

Not a fix at all. Imperial bandaid as usual. C'est la vie. Just happy I never bother to hop on OP trains, because especially now they are quick to leave the station.

[Jabberwocky]

More units means it's harder to layer and still stay in range for all the buffs. It also means more chances to fail the orders, which means it won't be an automatic decision to fall back and then shoot, they'll have to think about staying in or risking being able to shoot. You'll also have those pivotal moments they need that firepower and it isn't there.

We'll have to wait and see how it pans out in reality but I'd rather they do a small change for now until the rest of the codexes are out and then do more balance tweaks.

[endgame422]

The other possibility is they get the Nerf for orders and get a slight points increase.
When they added 1 point to brimstones and nerfed brimstone smite I feel like they only mentioned the smite part in the previews, but then when I got the codex they had an extra point tacked as well.
So if scripts are 33 percent more expensive and ignore half of orders and are harder to get into morale ignoring buffs I'm calling it good.

[Hive Bahamut]

Well now that the cat's out of the bag, here's something hilarious I noticed.

20-30 ok that's "reduced footprint"
4+ for orders? Ok I like, it's something.

Wait a second... Merge? For 1-2CP? (Forgot amount) So now they can't TAKE a 50 squad, but they can MAKE a squad of 90+. Oh and by the way, if you bomb them all they just replenish the WHOLE thing for 2 more CP.

As they already fill out Brigades under 1000, expect to see this happen.

I really try to avoid saying GW has favourites but man.. THAT'S a nerf?? Holy Terra, nerf the hell out of Nids GW!

[autoxidation]

Oct 1, 2017 22:49:41 GMT Hive Bahamut said:

Well now that the cat's out of the bag, here's something hilarious I noticed.

20-30 ok that's "reduced footprint"
4+ for orders? Ok I like, it's something.

Wait a second... Merge? For 1-2CP? (Forgot amount) So now they can't TAKE a 50 squad, but they can MAKE a squad of 90+. Oh and by the way, if you bomb them all they just replenish the WHOLE thing for 2 more CP.

As they already fill out Brigades under 1000, expect to see this happen.

I really try to avoid saying GW has favourites but man.. THAT'S a nerf?? Holy Terra, nerf the hell out of Nids GW!

You can't use Send In The Next Wave on a unit that was combined earlier. It explicitly states that in the rule.

[Hive Tyrant Qiln]

Oct 1, 2017 22:49:41 GMT Hive Bahamut said:

Well now that the cat's out of the bag, here's something hilarious I noticed.

20-30 ok that's "reduced footprint"
4+ for orders? Ok I like, it's something.

Wait a second... Merge? For 1-2CP? (Forgot amount) So now they can't TAKE a 50 squad, but they can MAKE a squad of 90+. Oh and by the way, if you bomb them all they just replenish the WHOLE thing for 2 more CP.

As they already fill out Brigades under 1000, expect to see this happen.

I really try to avoid saying GW has favourites but man.. THAT'S a nerf?? Holy Terra, nerf the hell out of Nids GW!

You have to kill all of them to use the strategems.

[Hive Bahamut]

Oct 1, 2017 23:57:24 GMT autoxidation said:

Oct 1, 2017 22:49:41 GMT Hive Bahamut said:

Well now that the cat's out of the bag, here's something hilarious I noticed.

20-30 ok that's "reduced footprint"
4+ for orders? Ok I like, it's something.

Wait a second... Merge? For 1-2CP? (Forgot amount) So now they can't TAKE a 50 squad, but they can MAKE a squad of 90+. Oh and by the way, if you bomb them all they just replenish the WHOLE thing for 2 more CP.

As they already fill out Brigades under 1000, expect to see this happen.

I really try to avoid saying GW has favourites but man.. THAT'S a nerf?? Holy Terra, nerf the hell out of Nids GW!

You can't use Send In The Next Wave on a unit that was combined earlier. It explicitly states that in the rule.

There's the silver lining. Nice catch!

Still.. 60 man squads will be EZ, 90 not difficult.

[acehilator]

At least read the rules properly before starting to flip tables

The "Consolidate Squads" stratagems allows you to consolidate Infantry squads, Conscript units don't have that keyword, they are just <INFANTRY> and <CONSCRIPTS>. Regular Guard infantry units have that keyword.

[able]

The thing that really annoys me is that the people designing the game seem to have no idea how some of the abstractions relate to feel of the game. Well coordinated soldiers who are able to cover for each other and communicate well are better represented by large units, while disorganised rabbles are better done with lots of small ones. Buffs work better, and the enemy is not able to blow holes in the line because casualties can be taken from further away. A single unit charging only takes one round of overwatch, where multiple units can take several, feeling uncoordinated. Large units also mean less drops, so the whole army is more likely to go first. Statagems are generally unit focused, so large units make more efficient use of command points, again suggesting discipline. The time I have felt most like I was controlling a rabble was when I rolled a 1 on an advance roll, which meant that the unit behind could not make use of the 5 they rolled. My units were literally getting in each other's way. This was gants, and the back unit was not in range anyway, but for shooting small units can break line of sight for each other. A single large unit doesn't.

Throw on commissioners still finding it far easier to stop conscripts breaking and standard guardsmen needing far more officers and it is the guardsmen that look like the the rookies who need babysitting. You can throw on some special rules, but that will never be a substitute for getting the core right.

My solution would have been that conscripts are taken in 30s per slot, but you get 3 units of 10 for that. I haven't seen the merge thing, but I was thinking about giving standard guardsmen a "form company" special rule, where up to 3 units are merged to give one larger one as they are deployed. A sort of reverse combat squads. Conscripts would be cheap bodies that hold ground softly, but are harder to buff effectively, while guardsmen would be far more coordinated but more expensive. Charging flamers with 30 conscripts would be suicide, because there is a decent chance each 10 would get melted in turn. The same flamers charged by guardsmen would only get to fire once. Pricing would need to be right, but at least with this they would reflect their fluff better.

The power of conscripts is annoying, but power can always be addressed by appropriate pricing. The really annoying thing for me is actually the extent to which they feel more disciplined than regular guardsmen, and this "undisciplined" rule does very little to change that. It just shows how little they know about their own game. Guardsmen kill stuff better, but that is all. Conscripts are far more tactically flexible, and that just feels wrong.