Vs. Chaos 8.0

[yoritomo]

8th edition is here and with it comes the new iteration of the Vs. Chaos thread.

The intent of this thread is to gather all the questions, advice, tactics, and general knowledge regarding Chaos. It is our hope that the serious discussion in this thread will help you achieve victory in your future games. If you are new then please feel free to ask a question. If you're a veteran then leave your impression or ideas on how to beat Chaos. The more input we have the better we get as a community.

On an administrative note: as this is a focused discussion, the moderators reserve the right to remove off topic posts without warning.

[nidzy]

I think the chaos book generally improved in point efficiency compared to Space Marines/other MEQ in 8th ed so far. They also seem to have pretty strong stratagems in general. I haven't played all of the flavors yet but I wanted to add a couple of notes for those of you who may not have as many games in yet.

Slaanesh Terminators with Combi Plasma are the real deal when backed up by a reroll 1 to hit character. They also pose a real challenge for us to tie up. Stealers backed by Catalyst will tie them up successfully, but I have still struggled to kill them without tying up the whole game. The double shoot stratagem is brutal.

All flavors of Daemon Prince seem to be pretty successful and annoying. Especially compared to a hive tyrant, the DP being better in almost every way (shorter move?).

Cultists have become a very popular pick in my meta as the "tide of traitors" stratagem makes them very point efficient, especially if you can't wipe them in a turn of shooting. (you can pick up a crippled unit and then bring it on from a board edge at full strength).


I struggled against a helbrute/pred spam alpha legion list that infiltrated cultists in from of chaos spawn (oddly enough) with some character support. It was a lot in my face at the beginning of the game, but I also dedicated too many reserves to what was in my face. It would have been very helpful to have it their backline as when I finally started shooting at the dreads, I found they were -1 to hit from the alpha legion rules and this made it a lot tougher to make any impact.

I will add more later but these are a few of the things that surprised/annoyed me in my games against non DG CSM.

[lordsia]

Just played a 1500pts game against Death Guard, and I need help; how, in the name of the Great Devourer, do we deal with Mortarion? My current strategies boils down to a full brood of Termagants to tarpit him, a Tervigon to replenish them as necessary, and 2-3 full clusters of Spore Mines for the kill. It's a kludge, and I welcome any and all options!

A secondary concern, but not much bothersome for that, is the effin Foetid Bloat-drone. T7, W10, 3+/5++ with 5+ FNP? For 158pts, no less, with two -count 'em, two! Effin heavy flamers with re-rolling 1's to wound. Compare with the Hive Crone, and... Yeah, no; those Tentaclids do <i>not</i> make up the difference.

[endgame422]

Well 20 TS genestealers+ broodLord should handle Morty in a single phase.They average about 17 points of damage even through his 4+/5+FNP And for I think 482 points it's pretty even.
In my games against him he always is placed front and center and always moves forward T1 so this isn't even that unreasonable to pull off.
Plus the look on your opponents face when his LoW goes down in 1 round of combat is priceless.
I find most players don't even worry about trying to make Morty hard to get too because they are so eager to get him into your lines, and he can tank all but the most brutal of assaults/shooting.
Unfortunately that's pretty much our only answer so if your opponent shoots the hell out of your stealers before they get to go your in for a rough time.

[lordsia]

Er, no. 20 TS Genestealers w/Broodlord puts out 6.25 wounds on Mortarion, and that's if neither of them don't get hit by his 50% D3 Mortal Wound aura at the start of the fight phase.

If TS were, as I (for some god-forsaken reason did) a source of mortal wounds rather than extra plain old damage... It would be different. But they aren't, and it ain't.

[No One]

lordsia said:

Er, no. 20 TS Genestealers w/Broodlord puts out 6.25 wounds on Mortarion, and that's if neither of them don't get hit by his 50% D3 Mortal Wound aura at the start of the fight phase.

(Correct me if I'm wrong on statline: T7 3+/4++ with 5+ Fnp)

20x4 attacks, hitting on 2s, wounding 5s normal, 6 2 dam (both 4++):

20x4/6x5/6/2/3*2+20x4/6x5/6/2/3x2x2=11.1 wounds

BL:
2.31 wounds

Total: 13.4. Still alive, but not happy.

[endgame422]

Thanks for the math there no one. I didn't actually calculate it I just did some mental math there.
But regardless of him being totally dead on average or being significantly wounded it's definitely the best solution we have. Plus if he's majorly degraded hes probably only killing half your stealers in his phase(again not calculated there) and he has to fly away with only a few wounds left.
I can't think of anything else in our current playbook that even has a chance.

[lordsia]

Oct 15, 2017 2:31:53 GMT No One said:

(Correct me if I'm wrong on statline: T7 3+/4++ with 5+ Fnp)

20x4 attacks, hitting on 2s, wounding 5s normal, 6 2 dam (both 4++):

20x4/6x5/6/2/3*2+20x4/6x5/6/2/3x2x2=11.1 wounds

BL:
2.31 wounds

Total: 13.4. Still alive, but not happy.

I'm not sure where I screwed up my math, but you're right. TS-Stealers do an average of 20/36 damage each, with regular 'Stealers doing 14/36.

I still think I'll use Spore Mines (mostly because I don't have the 'Stealers yet, working on it), but it's definitely an option.

Hardest part is going to be how to get Mortarion into CQC with them, but it's definitely not impossible - especially if you use the Genestealers as a GSC detachment. With a CP reroll on 3 or less on the Cult Ambush, you have a 1/6 chance of (please do not swear) deployment (of course, that depends on how the battlefield looks), a 1/12 chance for a (please do not swear) Deep Strike (ditto), a 1/4 chance for a regular DS, and a 50% chance for either A Deadly Ambush or They Came From Below, which is practically a guaranteed charge.

Not to forget Might From Beyond as a psychic power; the extra strength is useless, +1 attack (a 25% increase) less so.

[25below]

Playing against chaos in this week’s league game. Not very up on chaos as an opponent. I’m thinking a gun base will surprise my opponent while giving me some mobile shooting. My biggest concern is that my list seems thin on assault troops. Any advice on my list? Thanks for your advice in advance.


++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Tyranids) [33 PL, 654pts] ++

+ HQ +

Malanthropes [5 PL, 90pts]: Malanthrope

+ Heavy Support +

Biovores [6 PL, 108pts]: Show Spore Mine Rules
. 3x Biovore: 3x Spore Mine Launcher

Exocrine [11 PL, 228pts]: Bio-plasmic Cannon, Powerful Limbs

Exocrine [11 PL, 228pts]: Bio-plasmic Cannon, Powerful Limbs

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Tyranids) [78 PL, 1344pts] ++

+ HQ +

Broodlord [8 PL, 162pts]: Power: The Horror

Malanthropes [5 PL, 90pts]: Malanthrope

+ Troops +

Genestealers [12 PL, 168pts]
. 14x Genestealer: 14x Rending Claws

Genestealers [12 PL, 156pts]
. 13x Genestealer: 13x Rending Claws

Termagants [9 PL, 160pts]
. 15x Termagant (Devourer): 15x Devourer
. 10x Termagant (Fleshborer)

Termagants [9 PL, 160pts]
. 15x Termagant (Devourer): 15x Devourer
. 10x Termagant (Fleshborer)

Termagants [9 PL, 160pts]
. 15x Termagant (Devourer): 15x Devourer
. 10x Termagant (Fleshborer)

+ Elites +

Hive Guard [7 PL, 144pts]
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon

Hive Guard [7 PL, 144pts]
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon

++ Total: [111 PL, 1998pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

[endgame422]

Any idea what flavor of chaos?
Just because there's 5/6 builds that are pretty popular/strong right now and they play rather differently.
In general though if they have beserkers make sure to bubble wrap those exos and HG with preferably 2 rows of your gaunts.
If they are running horrors again keep those fleshborer gaunts up front to soak up the smite.
Combi-plasma terminators will murder any unit they can drop within 12 inches of.
Daemon princes with 2 malefic talons are very nasty, would likely drop any unit in your list in a single fight phase.
Chaos tends to lack in long range shooting (outside of lascannons)and lends itself to aggressive play so unless they have a bunch of havocs or predators expect them to come to you.
Key point against basically every tough chaos list is effective screening will be necessary, if your exos ,HG or biovores are left open chaos can hit hard and fast.
Good luck!

[25below]

Thanks for the comments. My plan is to castle up with the gants as bubble. But, I need to leave enough room to drop out of combat so everything else can shoot. The stealers are there to counterattack. Once everything is on the table, I can start to be more mobile. Does chaos have the ability to teleport units around the table?

[Hive Bahamut]

They have Warp Time which is basically Hive Commander as a psychic power.

[endgame422]

Make sure it's a big bubble.
Anything with Mark of khorne can be made to fight twice, so if they multi charge they can charge, pile in 3 inches,murder some gaunts, consolidate 3 inches,activate to fight again, pile in 3 more inches, murder your 2nd unit in line, then consolidate 3 more inches to lock your exos in combat and waste your shooting.

[25below]

Oct 18, 2017 17:28:32 GMT endgame422 said:

Make sure it's a big bubble.
Anything with Mark of khorne can be made to fight twice, so if they multi charge they can charge, pile in 3 inches,murder some gaunts, consolidate 3 inches,activate to fight again, pile in 3 more inches, murder your 2nd unit in line, then consolidate 3 more inches to lock your exos in combat and waste your shooting.

Holy (please do not swear)! That’s a lot of bubbles.  

[endgame422]

Costs 3 command points for most units, although beserkers and kharn the betrayer get it for free so be especially wary against world eaters.
Again good luck! Chaos has a lot of varied builds so you could really face off with any type of list.