Vs. Orks 8.0

[dandc]

Nov 20, 2018 17:10:08 GMT Master Chief said:

You can easily avoid that with first charging fight, second charge a unit with paroxysm on it.

This without using mass hypnosis from GSC.

Fight order is clearly very important when tackling orks with Nids, and I'm not clear on the interactions between Counter Offensive and our various spells and traits. Can anyone please spell out for me how paroxysm, mass hypnosis and one step ahead interact with counter offensive?

[Hive Bahamut]

This would be useful info actually. What is "first?" Chargers? Go first? I don't encounter this much melee but it would be nice knowing the interaction steps.

[kazetanade]

The order of things :

- Ultra Fight First, via strategem available only to Custodies FA bikes I think

- Fight First, via charging, counter offensive, One Step Ahead, venom/toxi whips, Slaaneshi daemons, etc.

- Fight Normal, via... No buffs or CHARGING. CERTAIN BUFFS AND DEBUFFS CANCEL EACH OTHER. If I'm not mistaken, Mass Hypno cancels out. If not mistaken, Paroxysm cancels out that wolf trait that always Fights First, but you could technical argue that Paroxysm is stronger (cannot be picked until any other eligible unit is picked vs Fight First).

- Fight Last, via debuffs like Paroxysm and Mass Hypno.

[No One]

kazetanade said:

If I'm not mistaken, Mass Hypno cancels out. If not mistaken, Paroxysm cancels out that wolf trait that always Fights First, but you could technical argue that Paroxysm is stronger (cannot be picked until any other eligible unit is picked vs Fight First).

Hyp is fight last even if charged. Hyp with non-charge fight first is ambiguous (I'd call it a roll off). Everything else since (to the best of my knowledge) is fight last, unless it would otherwise fight first, in which case fight as normal.

- Fight First, via charging, counter offensive, One Step Ahead, venom/toxi whips, Slaaneshi daemons, etc.

Note: counter offensive isn't fight first, and is just fight next (e.g. if your opponent had 2+ chargers, you could wait until they'd fought to counter attack, which is not something you could do with 'fight first'). So how it interacts with all of this is...not well defined . Personally, I'd say it ignores 'fight last', but it's very ambiguous.

[mattblowers]

Nov 30, 2018 2:49:28 GMT No One said:

Note: counter offensive isn't fight first, and is just fight next (e.g. if your opponent had 2+ chargers, you could wait until they'd fought to counter attack, which is not something you could do with 'fight first'). So how it interacts with all of this is...not well defined . Personally, I'd say it ignores 'fight last', but it's very ambiguous.

Worth noting that Counter Offensive only works to interrupt a sequence after a unit that CHARGED fought. I see people trying to use in after all the chargers finished.

If you are saying the Counter Offensive strategem doesn't ignore the 'fight last' is ambiguous, I would disagree. Counter Offensive states that you can pick an "eligible unit" to fight next. A unit with something like paroxcysm on it that states you can only be picked fight after all other units have fought would make that unit not eligible and thus not able to use the Counter Offensive strategem. Maybe that is not what you are saying though.

[khyz0r]

Sadly I don't know when it happened, but the FAQ regarding Paroxysm blocking Counter Offensive was striked out.

Q: If a unit is under the effects of the Paroxysm psychic power, can the Counter-Offensive Stratagem be used on it?
A: No, because it is not ‘eligible’ to Fight until every other unit has done so.

Which means yes you can interrupt a charge sequence, and select a unit that has had Paroxysm put on it. However, they still have to spend the CP to get the unit to fight, and thus to me it is worth using against Orks who rely on their boys being able to pump out the melee attacks.

[No One]

khyz0r said:

Sadly I don't know when it happened, but the FAQ regarding Paroxysm blocking Counter Offensive was striked out.

It's been...a while. Like, maybe a year (I think it was April big FAQ they answered Vexator, then eventually fixed parox for consistency).

However, they still have to spend the CP to get the unit to fight

Sure. They have to spend the CP to interrupt. Which they'd want to do anyway in basically all cases:
-Another charging unit? Would need to interrupt anyway.
-Ongoing combat? You pick, would need to interrupt anyway.
-Only one combat? They fight last after your single guy.
-Don't care? They still don't care.

Outside of very niche tactical plays around order of opponent's fights or something, it's basically only useful with multiple units in ongoing combats (or ongoing combats with fight first units), and I guess in combo with mass hyp, but that's not something to play around.

[niiai]

The counter offensive paroxysemn got taken away after GW made it a global across all codexes.

Oh well.

Good thing is after my ork opponent got saga of the beast he does not have that many points to use on counter offensive. In the old days it was almost impossible to charge with 2 units in the same turn. Who ever was stuck in CC would get killed by counter offensive. Not it is not a given.

Anyway. Do anybody feel like orks come out better then us? Boyz gets jumped in our face. They are better at shooting then genstealers, usualy I loose a lot of stealers to overwatch. And each stealer needs to kill around two buys to make their points back. Boys are just better.

Also, ork can have a lot of T8. At least my regular opponent does. That stupid card! And the big walker. It is really hard to kill in CC.Also, our big monsters are really bad at killing boys outside of shooting. And they have hidden power claws that messes us up.

Long story short when I play my ork opponent I end up being the shooty army, and that is not a good place to be. In an Orks vs Nids fights, Orks do melee better then us.

[zimko]

We need a new thread for Orks 9.0.

[yoritomo]

Yeah, the did see significant changes with their new codex. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the ork codex dropped around the end of August beginning of September. We generally wait for at least 6-8 weeks after a codex drops before we start up a new vs. thread. Remind me around the middle of October and I’ll start up a 9.0 version.

[conquest]

Orks 9.0 hasnt "officially" released (they released the beast snaggas army box last month and with it an exclusive codex, which isn't available seperate yet). I imagine there's plenty of talk about whats in the codex, but tournaments haven't been allowing it that I know of.

[No One]

...They definitely have. I won't say literally all of them, but there's been quite a few. LGT did (though they banned some of the new units without kits) and there were a lot of Orks there. Also GW have released an FAQ for it, so...yeah, it's officially out, just not readily available (or maybe it is now? I think pre-orders went up recently).

[zimko]

I've already faced the new orks at a tournament that ITC considers to be official. So I figured a new discussion could be had since people are playing with the new codex. I didn't realize the codex was only accessible thru an army box, but that doesn't really matter does it? It's still the codex.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

The new codex is fully available:

www.games-workshop.com/en-US/codex-orks-hb-2021-eng

I think the full drop of units reached stores this past week. My FLGS had the kill rig and boss tower on the shelves under new releases.


As for the new codex:
1. I think kill rigs could be made into insane killing machines for under 200 points + maybe a relic or a warlord trait.
2. I'm not impressed with dakka weapons. They're basically bad rapid fire. It also means that orks lost the ability to advance and shoot for most of their weapons, which greatly benefitted them in the old codex.
3. Boss on squighog is a crazy tank killer at 60ish points

[zimko]

Squigbuggies, Scrapjets, Dakkajets and Blastajets are all insanely good.

In addition to these good vehicles... ALL Orks get +1 to hit (stacking, though they can never have more than a cumalitive +1, this does allow them to negate -1 modifiers) for the shooting phase each time an enemy unit is destroyed by Orks in the shooting phase.
AND: They have a Waaagh that lasts for 2 turns that gives all Ork Vehicle's ranged weapons an additional AP. In the below cases, this means that most of their shooting is AP -3 which is the sweet spot for getting around Enhanced Resistance.

Squigbuggies:
90 pts, units of 3
T6, W9, Ramshackle (-1 damage if strength of weapon is less than 8), Sv 4+.
Offense:
- A gun with 36" range, ignores LOS, assault, blast, 2d6 shots, srength 5, ap -2 (-3 for 2 turns with a waaagh), damage 2. 4+ to hit (BS 5+ but comes with a +1 to hit from Grot Gunner).
- A shorter ranged gun with the exact same profile as above but 1d6 shots, does not ignore LOS, 18" range and no natural +1 to hit.
- 4 attacks in melee, 4+ to hit, strength 7, AP -2, Damage 2.

Scrapjets:
90 pts, units of 3
T6, W9, Ramshackle (-1 damage if strength of weapon is less than 8), Sv 4+.
Offense:
- A gun with 24" range, heavy, blast, 3d3 shots, srength 8, ap -2 (-3 for 2 turns with a waaagh), damage 3. 5+ to hit.
- 2x Twin Big Shootas with 10/6 shots (dakka) at 36" range. 1 of these gets +1 to hit. Strength 5, Ap 0 (-1 with waaagh), Damage 1.
- Assault 1 missile with 24" range, strength 8, ap -2 (-3 with waaagh), damage 3. +1 to hit VEHICLES.
- 4 attacks in melee, 4+ to hit, strength 7, AP -2, Damage d3.

Dakkajet
110 pts, T6, W12, Ramshackle (-1 damage if strength of weapon is less than 8), Sv 4+. 5++ if nearby Blastajet.
Offense:
- 5 guns that add up to 20 shots at 36" range or 30 shots at 18" range. Strength 6, Ap -1 (-2 with Waaagh), Damage 1. BS 5+.

Blastajet
230 pts, T6, W12, Ramshackle, will have a 5++ and provide all nearby fliers with the 5++.
BS 4+ (so can reach 3+ if something else killed a unit this phase).
Offense:
- 2x Tellyport Mega-Blasta: 24", Assault D6, S9, AP-2 (-3 with Waaagh), Damage D3+3, Blast.
- 2x Supa Shoota: 36", Dakka 6/4, S6, AP-1 (-2), Damage 1.
- Smasha Gun: 48", Heavy D3, S8, AP-4 (-5), Damage D6, Blast.

So an Ork player can start with the Squigbuggies. A unit of 3 gets 6d6 shots at 36" range that ignore LOS. They will kill something with that (even if it's a small 5 man unit) in order to give the rest of the army +1 to hit for the phase. Then each kill after that will grant more +1 to hit to negate any negative to hit modifiers.
The Blastajet, being an aircraft, can get LOS on just about anything it wants and kill just about anything it wants with 2d6 shots, at 3+ to hit, that deal d3+3 damage and are AP 5. 

The Dakkajets and Scrapjets have insanely high volume of fire, and all their guns are AP -1 at least thinks to the Waaagh. On top of that, the Scrapjets also have Damage 2 and Damage 3 weapons.

Honestly, if you don't go first I don't think any tyranid army has a chance against this. I tried hiding Hive Guard but you can't hide from an aircraft, and a Blastajet can easily cripple, if not wipe out a unit of Hive Guard.