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Post by Threeshades on Jun 14, 2017 19:22:31 GMT
I want to open a little discussion on the topic of the difference of unit names and unit name keywords, because I believe these are interpreted incorrectly.
What I'm on about is when a special rule (or Ability, as they are called now) affects a specific kind of unit (often not the unit that actually has the ability). There are two fundamental ways these types of abilities are written.
For example the first type would say "Unit Xy within 6" of this model can reroll hit rolls of 1.", while the second type would be written as "UNIT XY within 6" of this model can reroll hit rolls of 1."
The problem I'm seeing is that many people interpret these two rules as basically the same. But I get the feeling they aren't. I think the first writeup only affects the actual Unit Xy, not differently named units with the UNIT XY keyword. Meanwhile the second way does affect units with the actual Keyword because it explicitly references the Keyword rather than just a name.etztere Ausdrücklich auf das Keyword verweist.
Two examples taken from the Tyranids Index:
Old One Eye; Alpha Leader
Tyrant Guard; Blind Rampage
(the Shieldwall ability is handled with Keywords in the same way)
Old One Eye grants his bonus to Carnifexes, but not to himself, even though he has the CARNIFEX keyword. The ability does not call for the Keyword, but a unit name. Old One Eye is an Old One Eye and a CARNIFEX, but not a Carnifex.
On the other hand the Tyrant Guard's ability directly references the HIVE TYRANT keyword, which means all units with the Keyword interact with this ability, not just those that are named Hive Tyrant. So Swarmlord, who isn't a Hive Tyrant ist, but is a HIVE TYRANT does qualify.
I think the purpose of having Keywords with their distinctive formatting in ruletexts is exactly to make this type of distinction, but many people seem to ignore it, as it seems to be generally accepted that Old One Eye can buff himself.
Just something to have a little talk about.
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Post by blackrainbow on Jun 15, 2017 2:32:36 GMT
As stated (by me) in other threads, to paraphrase from the rule book, "all models that have an aura are always within that aura". Now if an aura says "this affects KEYWORD" and your creature is that keyword in name but does not specifically listed the KEYWORD under the Keyword section, then no it would not get the benifit. I hope my use of caps for different interpretations of "keyword" is okay.
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Post by Threeshades on Jun 15, 2017 2:35:04 GMT
I agree with all of that.
What I'm talking about is the opposite though: units that have the KEYWORD but the rule does not call for a KEYWORD but a unit name.
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Post by gracelessgaunt on Jun 15, 2017 3:45:16 GMT
I disagree with your assessment, Threeshades . I think that if something is a CARNIFEX, it also counts as a "Carnifex"- that is, an un-bolded word can also be treated as a keyword when reading a special rule. There are several rules in the core rulebooks that simply don't function without this assumption. For one example, let's look at the Tau rule Drone Support. This rule says that when the unit is set up, "any accompanying Drones are set up in unit coherency". Any Drones, not DRONES. This may seem nitpicky, but it's important- the rule says "Drones", but it must also mean "DRONES", because it is also intended to apply to the DS-8 Tactical Support Turret, which is not categorized formally as a "Drone" except through its keyword. For the rule to work as intended, you must assume that "DRONE" implies "Drone". |
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Post by Threeshades on Jun 15, 2017 3:58:36 GMT
I disagree with your assessment, Threeshades . I think that if something is a CARNIFEX, it also counts as a "Carnifex"- that is, an un-bolded word can also be treated as a keyword when reading a special rule. There are several rules in the core rulebooks that simply don't function without this assumption. For one example, let's look at the Tau rule Drone Support. This rule says that when the unit is set up, "any accompanying Drones are set up in unit coherency". Any Drones, not DRONES. This may seem nitpicky, but it's important- the rule says "Drones", but it must also mean "DRONES", because it is also intended to apply to the DS-8 Tactical Support Turret, which is not categorized formally as a "Drone" except through its keyword. For the rule to work as intended, you must assume that "DRONE" implies "Drone".The Support Turret is not set up with the Drone Support rule and is not part of the drone unit though. It has its own special rule to deploy with. And as far as I can see the support turret is part of the Strike or Breacher Team, making its keywords INFANTRY and BREACHER TEAM/ STRIKE TEAM (the datasheets only distinguish between explicitly the Guardian Drones and the Team itself, there is no separate keyword entry for the turret and the Turret special rule makes the turret a part of the unit once it has deployed.) |
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Post by gracelessgaunt on Jun 15, 2017 4:03:51 GMT
Ach, you're right. That's what I get for not playing Tau in 8th yet.
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Post by Threeshades on Jun 15, 2017 4:04:45 GMT
If you do find something, let me know though, I kinda want to be wrong, because I want to hit on 3+ with OOE's Claws.
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Post by Hive Bahamut on Jun 15, 2017 4:30:20 GMT
Should this default to all named characters or is it a specific Nid bummer?
I would have easily played him as a Carnifex without checking this thread. I can see both ends though.
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Post by vejby on Jun 15, 2017 12:18:08 GMT
I think OP is right, unfortunately.
When the tyrant guards uses the KEYWORD, they also target the The Swarm Lord, who would not benefit if their ability targetted the unit name.
Similarly, the brood lords ability targets "genestealer units", while he himself is a brood lord. However, he also has the GENESTEALER KEYWORD, a lot like OOE having the CARNIFEX KEYWORD, but not being a carnifex unit himself.
Besides, if the brood lords ability worked on himself, then he would never miss with his WS2, which I do not think is the intent.
It does seem, though, that many unit KEYWORDS are the same as their unit name. Genestealers have GENESTEALERS (plural 's' in both cases) while the brood lord is a "GENESTEALER" (no plural 's') OOE is a "CARNIFEX", while a unit of carnifexes have "CARNIFEXES".
It is somewhat subtle, but fairly consistent. |
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Post by gracelessgaunt on Jun 15, 2017 17:32:10 GMT
Huh, you're right. The unit's name isn't "Carnifex", and it doesn't have the "CARNIFEX" keyword. OOE's ability applies specifically to "Carnifex units". So unless the unit's name magically changes from "Carnifexes" to "Carnifex" when they split up or are deployed in ones via an undocumented and unprecedented name-changing process, RAW, OOE can't actually affect other Carnifexes at all.
FAQ soon after launch, I hope.
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Post by Threeshades on Jun 15, 2017 18:10:46 GMT
Huh, you're right. The unit's name isn't "Carnifex", and it doesn't have the "CARNIFEX" keyword. OOE's ability applies specifically to "Carnifex units". So unless the unit's name magically changes from "Carnifexes" to "Carnifex" when they split up or are deployed in ones via an undocumented and unprecedented name-changing process, RAW, OOE can't actually affect other Carnifexes at all. FAQ soon after launch, I hope. But they are units made out of miniatures named Carnifex. 'Carnifexes is just the plural, making plural a different word would be pedantic. While the difference between a word and a WORD is a highlighted part of the design that is even laid out in the rulebook where Datasheets are explained. |
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Post by jesses on Jun 15, 2017 23:28:18 GMT
The hole in your logic is that that nowhere is it defined that normal format words are unit names, rather than just informally refering to a concept.
In fact all psychic powers use "psyker" interchangeably with PSYKER, which argues against your interpretation.
In fact the Tau rule Drone Support ALSO uses "Drones" interchangeably with "DRONES" (see Crisis Suits and Broadsides).
I'm not saying you are wrong, but your logic is not nearly as solid as you think it is.
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Post by Threeshades on Jun 15, 2017 23:42:34 GMT
The hole in your logic is that that nowhere is it defined that normal format words are unit names, rather than just informally refering to a concept. Page 175 point 9 defines that a sometimes a rule refers to a specific keyword and then proceeds to give the example of the formatted keyword. Thereby when you are not using the format, you are not referring to a keyword. If it were otherwise there would be no point to using the keyword at all. You could just write "all Adeptus Astartes models". I'll look into that once this post is finished, but I have a feeling the answer will be the same as with the drones. EDIT: Yep, it is. The powers are referring to the psyker that is using the power when not using the keyword. The word psyker in this case is just a short for "model that manifested this ability". It doesn't. It refers to the drones that have been bought with the unit. It doesn't require the keyword because these drones are part of the unit choice and there is no mistaking them, if you were using the keyword here you make all DRONE units eligible for this rule rather than this one inparticular. It would need the DRONE keyword if it referred to all drones in the army. See the saviour protocols which uses the keyword (as well as INFANTRY and BATTLESUIT because here the keywords are necessary as it refers to any unit with the keyword rather than just this unit's models. No logic is solid when it comes to GW rule design, but there is a reason why they went to the trouble of highlighting words with a very specific formatting. |
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Post by Hive Bahamut on Jun 15, 2017 23:45:32 GMT
Well that makes me glad I opt for the worst interpretation, especially with Nids. I don't think GW has ever spun the pendulum on us and errata'd something to work in our favour.
5+ to hit on our cheapest Anti-Armour model does make sense if you embrace GW'S old method of Tyranid Love...
*shouts into air from crouching position with arms raised..*
"Why don't you love us GW?! It's not our fault someone got rolled in 4th so bad they had to neuter the codex for the next 4 life cycles! Give us choice!!? .. Or.. Give us sacrifice.."
*crawls into fetal position*
"Someday.. They will see. They will see or we will show them the truth!"
It's the Imperial fault they even have special names damnit! It isn't Old One Eye.. It's probably Carnifexen #102001831-3 or something..
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Post by gigasnail on Jun 16, 2017 0:44:11 GMT
pretty sure you guys are way off with this.
also, you always miss on a 1 still, WS2+ and +1 to hit or not.
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