Best value infantry units in 8th edition

[gracelessgaunt]

Threeshades My bad, I was really tired and didn't account for overwatch snapshots. Let's redo that now that I've had coffee.

100 overwatch shots: 3.7 Genestealers killed while charging. 16.3 Genestealers make it into combat, kill 22.3 conscripts. 22.7 Conscripts hit back in your fight phase, killing 4.1 genestealers, leaving 12.2 left. Conscripts take a single morale casualty; Genestealers are assumed to be in synapse.

IG player's turn. Officer orders Fix Bayonets, killing 4.0 Genestealers in the resulting activation. Then the Fight phase. Conscripts activate first, killing another 4.0 Genestealers. The remaining 4.2 Genestealers then activate, killing 4.3 conscripts (as they no longer receive the unit size bonus for +1 attack). Guardsmen again take a single Morale casualty.

Now it's your turn again. 4.2 Genestealers activate first, killing another 4.3 conscripts. 14.1 Conscripts remain, and hit back, killing 2.1 Genestealers. Conscripts again take a morale casualty.

Finally, in the fourth turn/second round, Conscripts are ordered to Fix Bayonets, and then finish off the remaining Stealers, having lost ~110 of their 236 points vs. 240/240 points lost for the Genestealers. Doesn't seem like a viable counter to me.

EDIT: Yes, dealing with Conscript spam is a game-wide issue and not a Tyranids-specific issue. But unless lasguns get day-1 errata'd to 1 point each, we will need to have an answer to this.

[Threeshades]

Jun 11, 2017 17:05:15 GMT gracelessgaunt said:

EDIT: Yes, dealing with Conscript spam is a game-wide issue and not a Tyranids-specific issue. But unless lasguns get day-1 errata'd to 1 point each, we will need to have an answer to this.

Well, first of all the guard players need to shelf all their tanks and get a ton on guardsman models. And paint them, if they want to use them in tournaments. In casual play the "Don't be that guy" rule might take care of them as well.

[gracelessgaunt]

Jun 11, 2017 17:47:51 GMT Threeshades said:

Jun 11, 2017 17:05:15 GMT gracelessgaunt said:

EDIT: Yes, dealing with Conscript spam is a game-wide issue and not a Tyranids-specific issue. But unless lasguns get day-1 errata'd to 1 point each, we will need to have an answer to this.

Well, first of all the guard players need to shelf all their tanks and get a ton on guardsman models. And paint them, if they want to use them in tournaments. In casual play the "Don't be that guy" rule might take care of them as well.

Cost, difficulty of painting, and community pressure have rarely dissuaded tournament players from using strong strategies before.

Due to distance, I play about half of my games via Tabletop Simulator, so I'm looking down the barrel of this strat already and it isn't pretty.

[Threeshades]

Yes, but it will take them a while, perhaps enough time for erratas to change the meta.

Hey, if you are interested we could have a game in TTS some time.

[gracelessgaunt]

Threeshades That could be pretty fun! You'd have to bear with me, though; I'm still in the process of adjusting to the 8e rules.

[jesses]

I think you are forgetting that every other army (except Orks I think) has easy access to Sniper weapons, which neuter these Conscripts in short order. It's all based on the gamble that the opponent can't take out your very squishy HQs with ease.

Space Marine Scouts, Tau Sniper Drones, Eldar Rangers, Necron Deathmarks etc will all have removed the HQs before the Conscripts get into range.

[gigasnail]

If they take them. Which we have no idea if anyone is going to since we dunno what the meta is like and I haven't seen too many sniper units that are scary.

[jesses]

Jun 11, 2017 21:30:17 GMT gigasnail said:

If they take them. Which we have no idea if anyone is going to since we dunno what the meta is like and I haven't seen too many sniper units that are scary.

True enough, but I still can't see something like these Conscripts with such an obvious and simple counter not getting much, if any, actual playtime. On paper the mathhammer might seem good, but the complexities of actual play are going to destroy this army.


Hell, the size of those blobs works against them. I'll just castle up on one side of the board with my entire army and steam-roll through it one or two units at a time. The footprint of those blobs prevents them from being able to prevent that, and the requirement to bunch up close to get their buffs from their characters means you can just chain through them with consolidation. Orks will do this just as well to them.

[nidzy]

Jun 11, 2017 22:51:25 GMT jesses said:

Jun 11, 2017 21:30:17 GMT gigasnail said:

If they take them. Which we have no idea if anyone is going to since we dunno what the meta is like and I haven't seen too many sniper units that are scary.

True enough, but I still can't see something like these Conscripts with such an obvious and simple counter not getting much, if any, actual playtime. On paper the mathhammer might seem good, but the complexities of actual play are going to destroy this army.


Hell, the size of those blobs works against them. I'll just castle up on one side of the board with my entire army and steam-roll through it one or two units at a time. The footprint of those blobs prevents them from being able to prevent that, and the requirement to bunch up close to get their buffs from their characters means you can just chain through them with consolidation. Orks will do this just as well to them.

The problem is that 250 models is 750 pts which means that they still have most of an army to shoot at you from across the board. I haven't dug much into the AM book yet, but I am sure they still shoot

I think this is a great first example of how the game can still be broken with out a big mish mash of combined special rules. I also think it is going to take a really specific player to run that kind of list. It is certainly not something a casual player is going to jump into so I think the response to it in this thread is a little overblown.

I also agree with what was said above: snipers neuter this list and it seems silly to not take a unit or two of snipers a marine player as they are one of the few sources of mortal wounds in the index and they get a 2+ save in cover. You also don't really need to build a list around them with the shooting output that the marine book seems to provide, even though they are significantly more expensive than a naked marine. For 180 pts a 10 man squad of cammo cloak/sniper scouts is likely to get the wounds needed to kill a 4 wound commisar, and if they don't they will do it the next turn. Meanwhile, 80+ readily available assault cannon shots (plus however many bolters) will begin the work of eating up the conscripts.

Nids lack snipers, but we can definitely pick a unit to kill and kill it, then move on to another and the deployments/missions are diverse enough to give us a good chance to win as we will also be far more mobile than this army in any case.

[gracelessgaunt]

Other factions have some snipers. We don't have snipers. GSC doesn't have snipers.

So while a sniper-heavy build might help bring down this composition, it doesn't help us at all unless we ally GSC to ally IG to get Ratlings.

[jesses]

Jun 12, 2017 0:45:29 GMT gracelessgaunt said:

Other factions have some snipers. We don't have snipers. GSC doesn't have snipers.

So while a sniper-heavy build might help bring down this composition, it doesn't help us at all unless we ally GSC to ally IG to get Ratlings.

We don't need them. As long as they are prevalent in the meta, then this sort of list doesn't work and you don't have to worry about seeing it.

[No One]

nidzy said:

and the deployments/missions are diverse enough to give us a good chance to win as we will also be far more mobile than this army in any case.

Move! Move! Move! is essentially Hive Commander, just with mandatory Advance - they have us ~equal to beat on footslogging mobility (though this comes at the risk of leaving characters behind). We do have DS options though, true. But 'deployments and missions' - aren't most objectives? Where they're scored by having more models on them than your opponent?

jesses said:

We don't need them. As long as they are prevalent in the meta, then this sort of list doesn't work and you don't have to worry about seeing it.

10 scouts with snipers deal, on average, 3.3 wounds to a T3 5+ (which I'm assuming a Comissar is - they might be 4+, but I'm pretty sure that'd be an upgrade). So, on average 2 turns - for your 180 pt unit to kill one of the squishiest characters in the game. If we compare Captain, that's 1.9 wounds, or on average 4 rounds to kill (~3.2, rounding up for the last wounds - but even 3 rounds is bad). Now, do you think snipers are going to prevalent in the meta? Personally, I'm thinking no . Edit: Misread the Mortal being in addition, which does bump their effectiveness up a bit. But still, 60% chance to kill in one turn, and usually needing 3 rounds to kill a Captain...not for that pt cost I don't think...

Even if they were - commissars/officers are 30 pts. An extra 60-120 odd pts if the meta has snipers, now they're not likely to kill the characters before the guardsmen start killing the scouts (36" range, characters sit middle/back - in range after Move! Move! Move! at least.)

I don't see this really being a thing, just due to practicalities - I'm not even sure if you could finish 2 turns in 3 hrs . Model cost as well isn't going to help.
But I can very definitely see this being a thing at smaller scales (i.e. 'only' 100-150 conscripts, for <800 pts max pretty much, depending on how much surety you want with characters. Could probably be done pretty OK with ~600 pts) - just look at Renegade artillery. Cheap, spammable infantry are played if they're effective.

[nidzy]

Jun 12, 2017 2:15:54 GMT No One said:

nidzy said:

and the deployments/missions are diverse enough to give us a good chance to win as we will also be far more mobile than this army in any case.

Move! Move! Move! is essentially Hive Commander, just with mandatory Advance - they have us ~equal to beat on footslogging mobility (though this comes at the risk of leaving characters behind). We do have DS options though, true. But 'deployments and missions' - aren't most objectives? Where they're scored by having more models on them than your opponent?

jesses said:

We don't need them. As long as they are prevalent in the meta, then this sort of list doesn't work and you don't have to worry about seeing it.

10 scouts with snipers deal, on average, 3.3 wounds to a T3 5+ (which I'm assuming a Comissar is - they might be 4+, but I'm pretty sure that'd be an upgrade). So, on average 2 turns - for your 180 pt unit to kill one of the squishiest characters in the game. If we compare Captain, that's 1.9 wounds, or on average 4 rounds to kill (~3.2, rounding up for the last wounds - but even 3 rounds is bad). Now, do you think snipers are going to prevalent in the meta? Personally, I'm thinking no .

Even if they were - commissars/officers are 30 pts. An extra 60-120 odd pts if the meta has snipers, now they're not likely to kill the characters before the guardsmen start killing the scouts (36" range, characters sit middle/back - in range after Move! Move! Move! at least.)

I don't see this really being a thing, just due to practicalities - I'm not even sure if you could finish 2 turns in 3 hrs . Model cost as well isn't going to help.
But I can very definitely see this being a thing at smaller scales (i.e. 'only' 100-150 conscripts, for <800 pts max pretty much, depending on how much surety you want with characters. Could probably be done pretty OK with ~600 pts) - just look at Renegade artillery. Cheap, spammable infantry are played if they're effective.

Point taken:) I am still super excited about trying out my 10 snipers though....

[mattblowers]

Jun 11, 2017 2:29:39 GMT gigasnail said:

I was actually just coming here to ask how the hell we're (or anyone, really) supposed to kill large units of infantry effectively at range.

We don't. But we are super mobile, so throw some stuff into their face and keep them locked up on the other side of the table, and outscore them on objectives. I haven't found an army yet that can keep up with our mobility (haven't played against DE or Harlies yet). Even 20 genestealers and a broodlord charging are going to ruin their day. Between the charge attacks and morale the unit should be gone as long as you have a t-cyte or harpy/crone to eat the overwatch.

[Hive Bahamut]

My vote is definitely Guardsmen now having gone through most of the indexes. There are some stellar deadly units but they cost a lot. I don't think any other unit is THAT deadly for the cost per wound. Heck on lucky rolls a single Guardsmen can almost Cripple a tank. Potential is crazy good with S3 hurting everything.

A straight up firefight with equal point in Conscripts/guard vs. Anything else is a nightmare. We are super fast, but we need more than that to be contender.