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Post by russellr on Jun 5, 2017 2:15:41 GMT
Now that many of us have had a look at the new rules, let's start discussing the best value units and configurations.
This is designed for infantry units, not characters, monsters or vehicles. Please list your reasoning, preferably with details about the unit's strengths, and the optimal configurations. This can be for any army in 8E.
Acolytes
Basic details
Army: Inquisition Unit: Acolytes They're an Elites choice and they're 1 to 6 in a squad. Pity you can't have more in the unit, but oh well. For under 10 points base, they only have T3 and Sv 5+, but they have A2 and, more importantly, W3!.
Special rules They can also embark on any Imperial transport, so I'm sure there are going to be some great combos there. They can choose to belong to ordos Malleus to re-roll to hit and to wound vs chaos/daemon, Hereticus to re-roll to hit and to wound vs chaos/psyker, Xenos to re-roll hit and wound rolls of 1 vs targets that don't have chaos, imperium or unaligned faction keywords. Lastly, they could belong to a different ordos and get to re-roll hit rolls of 1 against characters. The loyal servant rule lets them transfer wounds from an inquisitor to the acolyte on a 2+.
Equipment By default they get a chainsword and a laspistol, so they have 3 attacks in melee. That's a sturdy unit right there. Apart from that, they get several weapon choices. Any model may replace its laspistol with another pistol. Any model may replace its chainsword with another melee or ranged weapon. "Any model" is really potent here and lets them customise their loadout really nicely.
The laspistol can be replaced with a bolt pistol for free ... so that WILL be done unless the weapon is upgraded to a different option. The needle pistol is a fairly cheap upgrade, meaning the unit can kill a decent amount of infantry, as long as their save isn't too high. That's not too bad an option. The plasma pistol is another fun option, but it's relatively expensive compared to the other options. Using supercharged plasma pistol shots against targets that you can re-roll against, that's an option.
The chainsword can be replaced with a variety of choices, either ranged or melee.
Melee options vary, but I believe the best is power maul, as that lets them strike at a decent S5 with AP-1. I think S3 makes power swords a bad choice, so the only option I would take is the power maul. The ranged options are more fun. There are expensive choices, like the three combi-weapon choices that are all over 10 points. The flamer and meltagun are options too, but the obvisouly powerful option has to be the plasma gun. If you have re-rolls and use the supercharged shots, you can do a lot of damage for just over 20 points. But that's an expensive option. Next you hhave the options that are less than 5 points, the boltgun, hot-shot lasgun and storm bolter. The boltgun and the hot-shot lasgun are good, but the best option to me is the storm bolter! It's cheap and gives you a rapid fire 2 bolter, what's not to like? Even if the ordos doesn't give you re-rolls, you've got a lot of shots, especially within 12"
Best choices
1) 6 Acolytes with storm bolters and bolt pistols. For 60 points, this unit has 12 or 24 shots, hitting on 4+ and they might get re-rolls. They're oddly tough, with three wounds each, so that will keep them quite save, despite their T3 and Sv5+. This unit is great at killing xenos troops, especially within 12" if they are the right ordos. At close range, they'll even do well enough against marines that aren't in cover. Through weight of numbers, they can put wounds on dreadnoughts and the like.
2) 6 Acolytes with plasma guns and bolt pistols. For 126 points, this unit has 6 or 12 shots, hitting on 4+ and they'll ideally get a re-roll of some sort. These must have the right Ordos and the enemy must have tough vehicles or monsters, else this option should be avoided. Fun fact, if using ordos Malleus or Hereticus against a Renegade Knight at short range, overcharged, there's a good chance that three acolyte units will destroy it. On average, 16 models are needed. Of course, that's at short range, and some guys may well kill themselves from the overcharged explosions ... likely two or three. I think that's worth it for this combination that's, situationally, potentially, possibly very awesome. Against a marine dreadnought, i.e. without re-rolls, 8 acolytes would have a decent chance to blow it up in one turn. |
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Post by Koyori on Jun 5, 2017 2:45:27 GMT
I will argue that Bivores are among the better infantry units.. they are decently cheap.. and their guns can't really "miss" as they will just make more floaty death if they do, also sporemines do mortal wounds on anything sides a 1.. so yeah.. all them mortal wounds ftw
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Post by Threeshades on Jun 8, 2017 22:22:16 GMT
Ork Boyz are ridiculous. You can hardly do them wrong
With 2 attacks base at S4, +1 with a choppa and +1 when the unit consists of 20 boyz or more, they bring 4 attacks per model that wound anything that's not Titanic or a heavy tank on at least a 5+. If you bring Ghazgkull they get another bonus attack on the charge. Their nob brings in a Power Klaw with 3 attacks at base S5, so total 10, also benefitting from the +1 attack at 20+ models and ghazgkull's bonus. On top of all that they can fire their sluggas. There is little that will not at least get severely crippled by a charge of a full mob of boyz (which they can reroll if failed thanks to 'Ere We Go).
At 6 points a model, Ork boyz outperform ANY other unit in their price category by a long shot. Orks will be the undisputed kings of horde armies.
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Post by tomb on Jun 8, 2017 22:35:33 GMT
Dark Eldar
Min unit of five 35pts - min 6 units for a brigade 210 pts.
Add other slots for 12 command points.
Add power from pain and combat drugs.
Or strength from death and soul burn.
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Post by Hive Bahamut on Jun 8, 2017 23:37:27 GMT
Ork Boyz will be the best choppy unit now that GSC Acolytes have been priced into Marine levels unecessarily, and Stealers cost an arm arm and a leg. (Hehe)
Guardsmen will be the best shooty unit, super cheap, super flexible and First Rank making lasguns Rapid Fire 2 is nuts. Hot shot will scare anyone.
I see some form of Primaris being amazing. Because Marines need to out due their old versions.
I imagine Necron Warriors with forever game Reanimation and Rend -1 on the basic guns are quite potent too.
In fact, I would have to once again say that Hormagaunts and sub Devourer Gants we got the short end of the stick again in infantry/troop roles.
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Post by gracelessgaunt on Jun 9, 2017 5:42:07 GMT
Guardblobs are downright terrifying. Two units of guardsmen and one officer can, for 110 points, output ~80 S3 shots in one shooting phase at 12". If you don't have anti-infantry guns with >24" range, you are not going to kill them cost-effectively, because they can even take wounds off of T8 3+ with sheer volume of fire and win the trade.
For melee, I like Kroot Hounds. Cheaper than a Hormagaunt, 12" move, WS3+, Sv6+, otherwise GEQ statline. But where they really shine is their AP-1 attack, putting them solidly above Hormagaunts per model, let alone per point. Their only weakness is low LD, but you can take them in squads of four so it barely matters, or buff them with a Shaper if you're really worried.
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Post by mattblowers on Jun 9, 2017 15:53:13 GMT
Orks will be the undisputed kings of horde armies. I guess I missed the coronation. They are good, I'll give you that, but undisputed king?! Charge first with a unit of hormogaunts and there won't be enough left to make up for the losses. Berzerkers get to pile in and attack 2x regardless of who charged (rerolling if Kharne is nearby), and a unit of 2+ saves CC kited units will lock them down for a few turns until it no longer matters. That's just off the top of head of the things I've faced so far. Again, step back, deep breaths. No one has played enough games yet to be declaring anyone champion. Contender? Maybe. Recent club player declared Necrons now stink and that they can't win. He proceeded to get tabled by a necron player he declared them OP. It was glorious. |
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Post by Threeshades on Jun 9, 2017 16:33:17 GMT
Orks will be the undisputed kings of horde armies. I guess I missed the coronation. They are good, I'll give you that, but undisputed king?! Charge first with a unit of hormogaunts and there won't be enough left to make up for the losses. Berzerkers get to pile in and attack 2x regardless of who charged (rerolling if Kharne is nearby), and a unit of 2+ saves CC kited units will lock them down for a few turns until it no longer matters. That's just off the top of head of the things I've faced so far. Again, step back, deep breaths. No one has played enough games yet to be declaring anyone champion. Contender? Maybe. Recent club player declared Necrons now stink and that they can't win. He proceeded to get tabled by a necron player he declared them OP. It was glorious. A full unit of hormagaunts, no matter the upgrades, will on average kill ~11 ork boyz on the charge. Then the orks retaliate with about 60 attacks that kill just under 20 hormagaunts (actually 60 attacks would kill more around 22 gaunts, but they would have a little less than 60). It's no contest, no matter who goes first. All the hormagaunts manage to do by going first is to prevent themselves from getting wiped in a single volley of attacks. Point for point, hormagaunts are even outclassed by kroot hounds. Sure Khorne berzerkers are probably deadlier, but they are also not horde unit level in points. I'm not saying orks are the best army in the game, nor that they are best at close combat. But they have the most effective horde units. (Also not saying hormagaunts aren't good, but dealing damage is not what we get gaunts for) |
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Post by mattblowers on Jun 9, 2017 17:29:38 GMT
I guess I missed the coronation. They are good, I'll give you that, but undisputed king?! Charge first with a unit of hormogaunts and there won't be enough left to make up for the losses. Berzerkers get to pile in and attack 2x regardless of who charged (rerolling if Kharne is nearby), and a unit of 2+ saves CC kited units will lock them down for a few turns until it no longer matters. That's just off the top of head of the things I've faced so far. Again, step back, deep breaths. No one has played enough games yet to be declaring anyone champion. Contender? Maybe. Recent club player declared Necrons now stink and that they can't win. He proceeded to get tabled by a necron player he declared them OP. It was glorious. A full unit of hormagaunts, no matter the upgrades, will on average kill ~11 ork boyz on the charge. Then the orks retaliate with about 60 attacks that kill just under 20 hormagaunts (actually 60 attacks would kill more around 22 gaunts, but they would have a little less than 60). It's no contest, no matter who goes first. All the hormagaunts manage to do by going first is to prevent themselves from getting wiped in a single volley of attacks. Point for point, hormagaunts are even outclassed by kroot hounds. Sure Khorne berzerkers are probably deadlier, but they are also not horde unit level in points. I'm not saying orks are the best army in the game, nor that they are best at close combat. But they have the most effective horde units. (Also not saying hormagaunts aren't good, but dealing damage is not what we get gaunts for) Missed my point. I was simply pointing out things I've played with or against so far this edition that put a bit of crinkle in your rush to crown orks champs of hordes before the game has even been officially released. |
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Post by Threeshades on Jun 9, 2017 17:40:33 GMT
Possibly. Consider it an educated guess rather than an official declaration.
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Post by russellr on Jun 10, 2017 10:11:23 GMT
There's a lot of guessing here, but that's all good, that's what the thread's meant to be about really  The ork boyz nomination is an interesting one. The nob upgrade seems to be for free, even though it's an optional choice, as there's no Boss Nob entry ... so that's a better free leader upgrade than most get. The constant 4 strength is really cool for them. The guard blog is another interesting choice; it looks great on paper, but so many guard playing are crying nerf, the infantry squad is an interesting nomination |
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Post by gracelessgaunt on Jun 10, 2017 15:49:05 GMT
Guard players are saying it's a nerf because non-battle-cannon Lemans are strictly inferior, transports got a points hike, Veterans aren't a troop choice anymore, etc. Really, the only two areas where they got unambiguously buffed are better orders (and FRFSRF is the strongest order by far anyway), and slashed costs on infantry.
It's nice to see IG get a really strong unit, but I hope it doesn't force them into a monobuild. Each successive match I've played against my IG buddy, she's used more and more guardsmen and fewer tanks or transports, because they're just not as efficient.
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Post by snowdaman on Jun 10, 2017 15:57:11 GMT
Ful something electo priests.
16 points per models. 6 +, 5++ and on a 5 + they ignore wounds and mortal wounds.
If they assault they pick one unit they assaulted and roll a d6 for each model in their unit any 6's do a mortal wound.
Hit on a 3+. Str 3 but with a +2 str ap -1 d3 damage weapon any 6s to wound cause d3 mortal wounds instead of normal damage. 2 attacks each.
Any time they destroy a unit in the fight phase their invul perminatly becomes a 3++.
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Post by gracelessgaunt on Jun 11, 2017 2:13:57 GMT
i.imgur.com/b4VPO0o.jpg Large infographic on conscript spam Worth having a look at. I think we have more options to deal with this sort of army than most factions, but it's still very worrying. Deathleaper is impossible to hit on BS/WS5, but a single model is only going to be able to hold back that kind of tide for so long, literal invulnerability or not. Venomthropes buffing normal lictors works too, but they could just shoot the venomthropes. Biovores outside of 24" could lay down a wall of spore mines to heavily restrict the guardblob's movement. I don't think we actually have cost-effective ways to kill this, though, and that concerns me.
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Post by gigasnail on Jun 11, 2017 2:29:39 GMT
I was actually just coming here to ask how the hell we're (or anyone, really) supposed to kill large units of infantry effectively at range.
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