No One's Maths Thread (Mostly GSC)

[tomcaet]

As I'm seeing it, that's what the CP are for. If a target is worth it, CP will make it work when it needs to work. Otherwise the bikes will work for their opportunity. They're very resilient for their points and don't require much attention if they don't have a critical mission in a game.

[sneggy]

Whilst thats true I find I have a reasonable idea of what I want my CP for going into a game. 6 for 2 perfect ambushes, 2 for broodsurge and field commander, 1 for a relic, 1 for broodcoven, 1 for they came from below. So thats 11 gone. Do i budget 4 more for lying in wait, grenades and rusted claw strat?
My current 1750 build (gross, cant wait until this event is done and we are at 2k again) only has 14cp so to do the grenades trick I need an extra cp from somewhere. What gets cut?

[luke1705]

Mar 7, 2019 10:20:37 GMT sneggy said:

Whilst thats true I find I have a reasonable idea of what I want my CP for going into a game. 6 for 2 perfect ambushes, 2 for broodsurge and field commander, 1 for a relic, 1 for broodcoven, 1 for they came from below. So thats 11 gone. Do i budget 4 more for lying in wait, grenades and rusted claw strat?
My current 1750 build (gross, cant wait until this event is done and we are at 2k again) only has 14cp so to do the grenades trick I need an extra cp from somewhere. What gets cut?

Do you need they came from below or can you make the deployment work without it?

Edit: 2 other options would be to toss a nexos in there or to get yourself a 4AE warlord (if you don’t have one already. Then as part of the broodcoven, you can get +d3 CP for nothing. It’s a big part of why my 2k has a mixed brigade. That and because otherwise I don’t have vect

[sneggy]

Yeh I have the 4AE magus for broodcoven and vect. its possible. Just tight making it work with only 14cp. Rusted claw bikers seem like the first thing to skimp on

[No One]

niiai said:

How do purestrains compare to the hyrbid metamorops and the acolyte hyrbids?

Not great. Even into T8 3+, where the fact that purestrains are all rend helps the most, 20 acolytes with banner gets ~6 wounds vs stealers ~4.5 for the same points. And they don't get Creeds, are less survivable per point, don't get mining weapons, don't get most of the good strats etc.

No One. How is the Goliath Rockgrinder in melle compared to a melee carnifex? I think the rockgrinder weapon is very good for melee.

OK? The weapon's decent, but let down by D3 damage, or at least compared to fex's flat 3. So, into T7 3+ it's 3.6 for the rockgrinder vs 3.2 for the fex.

Also, the abberant leader, how does he compare the carnifex or old one eye? There are ways to make him not have -1 to hit. Vigulus rellic.

Abominant with relic is decently killy: ~5.6 wounds on T7 3+ (slightly higher with vigilus relic rather than Codex due to AP-4). Which is better than a fex I guess? But still loses to OOE at 9.3 wounds (only 7.5 into T8 though, but at that point you voracious to ~10). The better comparison is to patty, who gets 6.5 wounds, is better into infantry, has psychic, fearless aura, advance and charge...just take more patriarchs unless you want the aberrant buffs specifically.

tshrenaleika said:

Should I be using 3 Battle Brothers Infantry and a Battle Brothers Heavy Weapons squad.
Or yust put a lascannon in each Infantry squad.
HWS does not need to move forward to get in lasrifle range, but Inf has more bodies protecting the important bits.

Any insight?

Eh...I don't think you really want lascannon HWT. They're pretty cheap lascannons (probably one of the cheapest), but...they're also incredibly squishy. Which makes them a really appealing target. So basically, if your opponent can shoot them, they'll die. Of course, 20 pts to stick a lascannon in a 40 pt squad changes the function of the squad, so I'd be leery of doing that as well, and 60 pts for a lascannon is...eh. (Basically, I'd just take mortars and figure something else out . Like hive guard, which are almost as killy into med vehicles, and far more survivable).

kazetanade said:

No One do you have a gauge on 4 RC bikers being able to maul a Knight/Russ/D. Primarch? Vs 5 RC Bikers, mostly to do with buying boxes - I can't make 5 bike units match with box of 4 properly, unless I buy 3 boxes straight and have 2 superfluous.

So, they're still pretty killy. ~13 wounds into T7 3+. ~10.4 into a russ. ~8.3 into a stock knight. ~6.2 into T8 4++ (e.g. knight with ion/WL trait): so almost don't even bother into primarchs, at <4 wounds.

As a comparison, for 4 CP you could get 20 acolytes, perfect ambush+draw blood to do more than that. Of course, this is ~half the cost and is much more able to apply that damage where you want. On the other hand, they're essentially useless afterwards, while 20 acolytes...are still 20 acolytes.

[kazetanade]

Right. So I might take them off and use the extra points for... More Acolytes? =\

Not sure how I feel about that. But at least I know I won't be using another box.

Edit: actually I forgot they're also meant for Flyers, as Acolytes can't charge Flyers and the 20 Hand Flamers may not do too much, so I either need A Jackal or 1 more grenade... Dammit.

[niiai]

I do not know how dependent the bikes are on CP? 5 bikes with grenades are 75 points. Just add 3 bikes and 2 wolfsquads are meat shield. The quad is 4 wounds for 15 points. That is very resilient for the cost. I also think it's weapon is good. Hav 2 hravy flamers in that squad and it is very killy and versatile. People do not wanne charge it. And with their mobilaty the opponent needs to choose what he shoots at? Most long range weapons are heavy weapons. Wanne shot a 10 point bike?

Just not pooling all CP into strayagems like that can go a long way to deredeem them from the acolyte conparison.

[No One]

Eh: it's 20" threat range, which isn't great for weapons that want to target heavy stuff that's usually deep in your opponent's DZ. And they're also not that tanky: decently survivable for their points, but when a lot of GSC armies can almost void damage entirely with blips, reserves and range? If they deploy aggressively to be effective early, they're likely to just die pointlessly. Which means they hide T1 and are still out of range T2. Maybe? I mean, it's not a bad thing to chuck in if you're running a mixed/claw brigade anyway and then just use it if the opportunity arises? But I don't think deploying it works as a viable and consistent delivery.

[No One]

Something I've been wanting to do is compare acolytes vs aberrants, so here it is. Comparison is:

34 acolytes with banner (~250-260 pts), 20 acolytes with banner and 8 saws (230 pts) and 10 aberrants with 8 picks/2 signs (250 pts: ignoring tail).

So, basically equal pts of stock acos vs acolyte/aberrant kill squads. Slightly different roles, but still a useful comparison.

Profile	34 acolytes	20 acolytes, 8 saws	10 aberrants
T3 5+	43	26	19
T4 3+	22	18	13
T5 4+ multi	19	23	22
T7 3+ multi	16	22	13
T8 3+ multi	10	16	13

Acolytes with saws are consistently the killier unit: there'd be some T5 stuff that they're worse into, but it's not bad. While 34 acos hold their own until they get to the knight.

So, what about with buffs? Well, it's a bit more awkward, since they get different buffs and different utility. But, comparing might+primus+draw blood/fight twice:

(Edit: Primus is hit buff only)

Profile	20 acolytes	20 acolytes, 8 saws	10 aberrants
T4 3+	40	43	45
T5 4+ multi	39	62	94
T7/8 3+ multi	28	56	45

Now, this is of course a very generous abstraction: being able to hit enough stuff to deal 94 wounds is...unrealistic to say the least, even with fight twice. But...this sort of goes in acos favour still? Fight twice is a more difficult one to account for, since it gives other utility but is harder to bring all the damage to bear (you leave yourself open to more overwatch/losing models in cc). And is also 2 CP more expensive.

Now, there are still other considerations: bodies and ob sec vs more durability against small arms.

Quickly, durability: 10 aberrants vs the aco kill squad. Average hits to kill:

Profile	34 acolytes	20 acolytes, 8 saws	10 aberrants
S4	77	45	90
S5	77	45	68
S8 Ap-2 Dam D3	41	24	27

So, basically the same survivability of aberrants vs stock acolytes against D1/D2 stuff (aberrants only win where T4 vs T3 matters). However, into high strength multi damage stuff, aberrants start to fall behind, since it mitigates the FNP even through -1 Dam. Not enough to say 'don't take them', but something to bear in mind if you don't have other targets for their anti-tank stuff.

(If anyone's got any other profiles/buff combinations they're curious about, let me know and I'll see what I can do: just don't give me a massive list all at once ).

[hivefleetkerrigan]

No one, excellent summary. I'm getting a different result on the abberants resilience vs s8 AP-2 D3. Did you add in the abberants damage reduction ability? The max damage should only be able to kill a single abberant, while a 1/2 only does 1 damage and kills half an abberant.

In terms of bringing a biophagus, does that significantly help abberants or is he a waste of points?

[No One]

hivefleetkerrigan said:

I'm getting a different result on the abberants resilience vs s8 AP-2 D3. Did you add in the abberants damage reduction ability?

...Yes, but apparently not for the S8 version. Corrected.

[kazetanade]

No One any thoughts of the 10 man 4 dad killer can drop vs an Abby drop? Pts are not fair, but can do results per points spent instead I guess?

[No One]

kazetanade said:

No One any thoughts of the 10 man 4 dad killer can drop vs an Abby drop? Pts are not fair, but can do results per points spent instead I guess?

...Do you mean 10 man acolytes with 4 saws? Which is half the 20 man with 8 saws (so, pt for pt as above, on a unit comparison substantially worse against basically everything but T6/7 3+).

[kazetanade]

My bad, I didn't notice the 20 man had 8 saws in it. I was thinking 10 man 4 saws into Knights or other vehicles, vs the Abby drop into the same. Suffice to say that 10 man 4 saws and 20 man 8 saws aren't as good into lighter or medium infantry.

Based on your maths, can I draw the conclusion that the Abbys are generally always worse unless Double Fighting, and aren't all THAT much more survivable without the strategem and Iconward (and are hence not points efficient for drops?)

[No One]

kazetanade said:

Based on your maths, can I draw the conclusion that the Abbys are generally always worse unless Double Fighting, and aren't all THAT much more survivable without the strategem and Iconward (and are hence not points efficient for drops?)

It depends on what exactly you're comparing them against, with and into. But I think, as a general rule:

Killiness per point:
Aberrants~<Stock acolytes<Saw acolytes
(Buffs change this, but...in general in acos favour, since they'll often gain more from strength buffs and draw blood is more generally applicable than double fight: double fight still follows that general trend, just gives other utility).


Tankiness per point:
Saw acolytes<Aberrants~<Stock acolytes

With stock acos of course not quite working as a kill unit. If you can give the aberrants the strat, then yes, they're tankier. But the iconward...gives aberrants reroll 1s (extra 1/18 saved) versus acolytes 6+ fnp (extra 1/6 saved): aberrants gain more against multi damage due to their -1 dam and 2 wounds meaning they could save wounds with it while acolytes just die, and a saved aberrant wound is worth more than a saved acolyte wound, but still.


So, I'd say my TL;DR take away: single kill unit, saws for max killiness, aberrants for decent survivability. Everything else, acolytes with sprinkled saws.