No One's Maths Thread (Mostly GSC)

[almostmercury]

I've been running this to great success in my league. Keep in mind, the league isn't full competitive and the missions have been ITC.

2 Flyrant
2 Mucolids
3 Mawlocs
1 First Curse (ML2, familiars x2)
1 Sub Up
Primus
3 Acolytes x12 (icon
Metamorphs x10 (7 claws, 3 whips, icon)

[No One]

OK, doing some quick maths. Metas vs acolytes:

Talons are now officially garbage - they get less hits per point with their talons (i.e. +1 hit and expensive) than equal points of acolytes do just with rending claw. Never, ever take them.

Whips (cheap 3 attacks) and claws are at least sometimes better, though rarely.
Claws - about the only thing I can find where they're better is T5 5+, though probably some other middling toughness models with no/middling saves e.g. daemons. (Can't check right now, since Rend-1 currently gives bonus wounds for giving a negative armour value . Ah Excel).
Whips - T8 2+. By 0.1 of a wound when acos at 10 models. So...ridiculously marginal, but at least they get a useful benefit out of it, with whips actually being useable. Edit: Now that I've actually got 2+ sv set up right, so it goes to a 6+ rather than dash on a rend, not even T8 2+ for the whips.
(russellr , sorry )

TL;DR - just pretend they're acolytes .

[russellr]

May 31, 2017 14:45:50 GMT No One said:

OK, quick doing some quick maths. Metas vs acolytes:

Talons are now officially garbage - they get less hits per point with their talons (i.e. +1 hit and expensive) than equal points of acolytes do just with rending claw. Never, ever take them.

Whips (cheap 3 attacks) and claws are at least sometimes better, though rarely.
Claws - about the only thing I can find where they're better is T5 5+, though probably some other middling toughness models with no/middling saves e.g. daemons. (Can't check right now, since Rend-1 currently gives bonus wounds for giving a negative armour value . Ah Excel).
Whips - T8 2+. By 0.1 of a wound when acos at 10 models. So...ridiculously marginal, but at least they get a useful benefit out of it, with whips actually being useable.
(russellr , sorry )

TL;DR - just pretend they're acolytes .

Thanks for the tag

I think metamorphs are used one of two ways:

The 'cheap' version with the whip, basically just fight with the rending claws and have the whips 'attack last' as the only benefit that whips give you

The more expensive version with the claws, well maybe that has a place, but the cost per model is so high it's unreal =/

The large points increase and the lack of claw+another weapon combo, that means metamorphs are useless this edition IMO.

So yeah I think the conclusion of pretending they're acolytes is sadly valid ...

acolytes themselves cost a lot though, even at their base cost but they're a lot more valid than metamorphs ...

[No One]

OK, so planning on doing some stuff, now that I've finally got the entire spreadsheet working again. How acos and purestrains hold up vs different targets, and how acos stack up to last ed. Possibly survivability acos vs stealers (pt for pt). Metas just suck, but if anyone really wants to know how much...

So - profiles. Anything particular? Any other requests while I'm throwing things out there?

[kazetanade]

Tanks and transports as always. They're more necessary then before due to Reserves gate.

[No One]

kazetanade said:

Tanks and transports as always. They're more necessary then before due to Reserves gate.

OK. Don't have a good general thing for them (if you want more in depth/other profiles, either ask or have a look at that thing I sent and do some addition yourself ). So, vs GEQ/MEQ/TEQ (T4 2+ 2W)/med vehicle (T7 3+):

                       T3 5+ T4 3+ T4 2+ T7 3+
Russ (BC/3HB)    3.96   2.47   2.46   2.31
Russ Moving       3.13   1.97   2.13   2.06
Russ (BC/3HF)    7.29   4.47   3.79   3.31

Chimera (HB/HB) 1.67   1.00   0.67   0.50
Chimera Moving  1.11   0.67   0.44   0.33
Chimera 2HF      3.89   2.33   1.56   1.17

Goliath             1.39   0.67   0.89   1.00
Moving             0.93   0.44   0.59   0.67

Edit: Old comments in spoiler - some applicable, some not.

SPOILER: Click to show

So, heavy flamer's better against basically everything. But, outside of T3 5+ (duh) it's not that much better, especially when compared to stationary russ. When you add in pts comparisons...(I might try and put in a screenshot here, I guess? Nice little graphic): but anyway.

Russ:
Russ is easily the most pts efficient - stationary HB wins vs everything bar flamers into T3 5+. While BC/3HF wins vs everything else.
Even moving, still beats out chimera/goliath. But is behind HF for most things (just don't shoot termis/T6+ with them sort of thing ), though only by a little bit.

So, depends what you want to do with your russ - but, unless you're planning on ramming it down their throats anyway, or really want a way of dealing with T3 5+ (and think you'll be getting into range...). Triple HB - that first turn Move, you wouldn't be shooting flamers anyway. Then you can sit still ~midfield and fire away. Triple HF might have a place if you're concerned about DS/something tangling with mid/backfield I guess?

Chimera:
Similar to russ - stationary HB more pts efficient vs MEQ/TEQ. But less vs GEQ and (interestingly enough) vehicles.
But, moving chimera worse vs everything, and non-negligably so. And, since it's a transport (and can't be used as a neophyte pillbox anymore...), I expect it's going to be moving a lot, and getting into range is going to be happening most of the time. Especially once you add in Advance and smoke launchers, which you'll likely be wanting to use anyway on the way in - which sacrifices HB output, but not HF due to range. Is more expensive, which'll impact no of units for reserves a bit. But, double HF looks like the way to go.

Goliath:
Output's very meh vs anything that isn't a vehicle, with even stationary goliath losing out to basically everything bar moving chimera with HB. And still loses to russ vs T7 3+ (does win vs T6 3+ though), even moving HB while goliath's stationary.
Better vs multi-wound infantry though - still not better than russ based on TEQ, but better than chimera.
But, increased model count and (probably) survivability due to the increased wound count, as well as fulfilling the 'neophyte pillbox' thing of old chimera. Basically only take for reserves gate by the look of things.

So, just realised I was using flamer profile rather than heavy flamer. Woops . Means that HF russ/chimera is more pts efficient vs basically everything (actually everything I tested - likely indicative of everything due to the similar damage profiles). About doubled vs infantry, which is really good.

Goliath only just loses out vs vehicles compared to HF chimera. Can shoot across the board, but still loses out to russ at doing that same thing. *Shrug* Neophyte pillbox only role I can see - if that's worth doing at all, well...

[kazetanade]

Jun 24, 2017 5:32:14 GMT No One said:

kazetanade said:

Tanks and transports as always. They're more necessary then before due to Reserves gate.

OK. Don't have a good general thing for them (if you want more in depth/other profiles, either ask or have a look at that thing I sent and do some addition yourself ). So, vs GEQ/MEQ/TEQ (T4 2+ 2W)/med vehicle (T7 3+):

                       T3 5+ T4 3+ T4 2+ T7 3+
Russ (BC/3HB)    3.96   2.47   2.46   2.31
Russ Moving       3.13   1.97   2.13   2.06
Russ (BC/3HF)    7.29   4.47   3.79   3.31

Chimera (HB/HB) 1.67   1.00   0.67   0.50
Chimera Moving  1.11   0.67   0.44   0.33
Chimera 2HF      3.89   2.33   1.56   1.17

Goliath             1.39   0.67   0.89   1.00
Moving             0.93   0.44   0.59   0.67

Edit: Old comments in spoiler - some applicable, some not.

SPOILER: Click to show

So, heavy flamer's better against basically everything. But, outside of T3 5+ (duh) it's not that much better, especially when compared to stationary russ. When you add in pts comparisons...(I might try and put in a screenshot here, I guess? Nice little graphic): but anyway.

Russ:
Russ is easily the most pts efficient - stationary HB wins vs everything bar flamers into T3 5+. While BC/3HF wins vs everything else.
Even moving, still beats out chimera/goliath. But is behind HF for most things (just don't shoot termis/T6+ with them sort of thing ), though only by a little bit.

So, depends what you want to do with your russ - but, unless you're planning on ramming it down their throats anyway, or really want a way of dealing with T3 5+ (and think you'll be getting into range...). Triple HB - that first turn Move, you wouldn't be shooting flamers anyway. Then you can sit still ~midfield and fire away. Triple HF might have a place if you're concerned about DS/something tangling with mid/backfield I guess?

Chimera:
Similar to russ - stationary HB more pts efficient vs MEQ/TEQ. But less vs GEQ and (interestingly enough) vehicles.
But, moving chimera worse vs everything, and non-negligably so. And, since it's a transport (and can't be used as a neophyte pillbox anymore...), I expect it's going to be moving a lot, and getting into range is going to be happening most of the time. Especially once you add in Advance and smoke launchers, which you'll likely be wanting to use anyway on the way in - which sacrifices HB output, but not HF due to range. Is more expensive, which'll impact no of units for reserves a bit. But, double HF looks like the way to go.

Goliath:
Output's very meh vs anything that isn't a vehicle, with even stationary goliath losing out to basically everything bar moving chimera with HB. And still loses to russ vs T7 3+ (does win vs T6 3+ though), even moving HB while goliath's stationary.
Better vs multi-wound infantry though - still not better than russ based on TEQ, but better than chimera.
But, increased model count and (probably) survivability due to the increased wound count, as well as fulfilling the 'neophyte pillbox' thing of old chimera. Basically only take for reserves gate by the look of things.

So, just realised I was using flamer profile rather than heavy flamer. Woops . Means that HF russ/chimera is more pts efficient vs basically everything (actually everything I tested - likely indicative of everything due to the similar damage profiles). About doubled vs infantry, which is really good.

Goliath only just loses out vs vehicles compared to HF chimera. Can shoot across the board, but still loses out to russ at doing that same thing. *Shrug* Neophyte pillbox only role I can see - if that's worth doing at all, well...

I take it this means the Goliath Truck has a nail in the coffin then.

Considering HF configs means you're in melee range pretty much - how does the output of a Rockgrinder with its flamer + charge look, as compared to a Chimera with 2HF config? 

Also, sad to see how badly the 2HB config for chimera looks. I really didnt like the flamer output so far because... well... it gets into that range, it flames once, then it either wrecks or gets stuck in combat. But at least the rockgrinder wants to be in combat too. 

Will you be looking in the above for points cost efficiency basis as well?

[russellr]

I think the truck is viable when transporting 10 acolytes with two flamers and possibly shotguns for the other eight. Just a pity it's weapon config can't change.

[kazetanade]

Jun 29, 2017 18:37:05 GMT russellr said:

I think the truck is viable when transporting 10 acolytes with two flamers and possibly shotguns for the other eight. Just a pity it's weapon config can't change.

Then why not a chimera with double flamers?

[almostmercury]

I think he meant Neophytes and it would be because the truck is open topped.

[russellr]

Jun 30, 2017 3:02:07 GMT almostmercury said:

I think he meant Neophytes and it would be because the truck is open topped.

Yes that's the one!
Two flamers and 8 shotguns do a decent amount of damage, especially to certain armies.
If the trucks could have double flamers it would be just perfect.

[kazetanade]

Jun 30, 2017 5:10:13 GMT russellr said:

Jun 30, 2017 3:02:07 GMT almostmercury said:

I think he meant Neophytes and it would be because the truck is open topped.

Yes that's the one!
Two flamers and 8 shotguns do a decent amount of damage, especially to certain armies.
If the trucks could have double flamers it would be just perfect.

What I'm trying to say is why not load them into a 2HF Chimera, and get out when you are within flamer range, and roast them with 2xFlamers, 2xHFlamers, and 8 shotguns? The 4 autogun shots you're paying for on the Goliath Truck is quite bad as per the math, and the rest of the unit cant shoot until they're within 12" anyway so its not like it can do much on the way there, and you dont have Smoke Launchers to stay alive, and the Chim only costs like what, 8 points more than a Goliath for 2HF. 

[russellr]

Jun 30, 2017 7:50:33 GMT kazetanade said:

Jun 30, 2017 5:10:13 GMT russellr said:

Yes that's the one!
Two flamers and 8 shotguns do a decent amount of damage, especially to certain armies.
If the trucks could have double flamers it would be just perfect.

What I'm trying to say is why not load them into a 2HF Chimera, and get out when you are within flamer range, and roast them with 2xFlamers, 2xHFlamers, and 8 shotguns? The 4 autogun shots you're paying for on the Goliath Truck is quite bad as per the math, and the rest of the unit cant shoot until they're within 12" anyway so its not like it can do much on the way there, and you dont have Smoke Launchers to stay alive, and the Chim only costs like what, 8 points more than a Goliath for 2HF. 

Getting out, walking and shooting gives them less overall threat range compared to staying in the transport, moving and shooting from inside. The truck ignores hits on a 6+, so that gives it 12ish wounds, so the chimera isn't much tougher, if at all. Also, the truck is much more sturdy than the guys are, versus many weapons anyway, so keeping them in their metal box should keep them alive longer - that depends a ton of the enemy army's composition of course.

[kazetanade]

Jun 30, 2017 10:51:31 GMT russellr said:

Jun 30, 2017 7:50:33 GMT kazetanade said:

What I'm trying to say is why not load them into a 2HF Chimera, and get out when you are within flamer range, and roast them with 2xFlamers, 2xHFlamers, and 8 shotguns? The 4 autogun shots you're paying for on the Goliath Truck is quite bad as per the math, and the rest of the unit cant shoot until they're within 12" anyway so its not like it can do much on the way there, and you dont have Smoke Launchers to stay alive, and the Chim only costs like what, 8 points more than a Goliath for 2HF. 

Getting out, walking and shooting gives them less overall threat range compared to staying in the transport, moving and shooting from inside. The truck ignores hits on a 6+, so that gives it 12ish wounds, so the chimera isn't much tougher, if at all. Also, the truck is much more sturdy than the guys are, versus many weapons anyway, so keeping them in their metal box should keep them alive longer - that depends a ton of the enemy army's composition of course.

Chimera is +1 toughness and +1 save tougher, and has Smoke Launchers which could work out about the same as having ignore damage on a 6+ for that round of shooting - the first round you're struggling to get that setup into range. But to be fair I rate -1 to Hit as higher effect than a 6+ per wound lost since each miss is potentially D6 wounds not lost. 

Usually once you're within range, the vehicle is either dead or stuck in combat - so you dont get to shoot with your passengers outside the first time you reach range. That's why I suggested the Chimera + Flamer/Flamer setup - double your output, generally same amount of survivability or more, roughly same points, same victory conditions but less lose conditions.  

[No One]

kazetanade said:

Chimera is +1 toughness and +1 save tougher, and has Smoke Launchers which could work out about the same as having ignore damage on a 6+ for that round of shooting - the first round you're struggling to get that setup into range. But to be fair I rate -1 to Hit as higher effect than a 6+ per wound lost since each miss is potentially D6 wounds not lost.

3+ is better than 4+ with 6++ against everything bar AP-3 or better. Add on the +1T, and it's more survivable vs everything bar dedicated anti-tank weapons (melta, las) base. Add on smoke launchers...