New Tyranid minis and rules? Updated Nov 3

[N.I.B.]

Nov 6, 2014 20:38:16 GMT asmodas said:

Forces of Leviathan: a new detachment for Tyranids with warlord traits, datasheets for new units, and new formations.

Better be allowed at my tournaments. I'm getting pissed off by never get to use the tools released for my army.

[tag8833]

Nov 6, 2014 17:36:19 GMT nameless said:

If that power is correct, then I would think the Malaceptor power is a hugely major waste.

Here is some Math Hammer on the Maleceptor:

Using 5 dice, The Maleceptor requires 5 shots to statistically take a hull point off of a vehicle, and that is 25 warp dice, and during the course of that shooting it has 65% chance of taking a wound.

If you roll 4 dice instead of 5, it takes 6 shots to take a hull point off a vehicle, and only 24 warp dice, and during the course of that shooting it has a 53% chance of taking a wound.



Using 5 dice, It requires 2.5 shots to statistically kill a Necron Warrior (LD 10). 12.5 warp dice, and has a 33% chance of taking a wound.

If you roll 4 dice instead of 5, it takes 3 shots to statistically kill a Necron Warrior, and only 12 warp dice, and during the course of that shooting it has a 26% chance of taking a wound.

[Yautja]

Nov 6, 2014 21:38:28 GMT tag8833 said:

Nov 6, 2014 17:36:19 GMT nameless said:

If that power is correct, then I would think the Malaceptor power is a hugely major waste.

Here is some Math Hammer on the Maleceptor:

Using 5 dice, The Maleceptor requires 5 shots to statistically take a hull point off of a vehicle, and that is 25 warp dice, and during the course of that shooting it has 65% chance of taking a wound.

If you roll 4 dice instead of 5, it takes 6 shots to take a hull point off a vehicle, and only 24 warp dice, and during the course of that shooting it has a 53% chance of taking a wound.



Using 5 dice, It requires 2.5 shots to statistically kill a Necron Warrior (LD 10). 12.5 warp dice, and has a 33% chance of taking a wound.

If you roll 4 dice instead of 5, it takes 3 shots to statistically kill a Necron Warrior, and only 12 warp dice, and during the course of that shooting it has a 26% chance of taking a wound.

You've forgotten about invulnerable saves, FNP and Look Out Sir.

[russellr]

Nov 6, 2014 18:23:01 GMT rehkal said:

Nov 6, 2014 4:37:51 GMT almostmercury said:

No, I don't mean the base that comes in the box for you to use with the Tyrannocyte. If you can't look at the pieces of both the Tyrannocyte and Sporocyst and recognize that the Sporocyst is bigger than an oval base before being a condescening fool, I don't know how to help you. There are photographs of the Tyrannocyte and Spores on bases. I can't find a photo of the Sporocyst on a base.

The Sporocyst rests on those clawed tentacles reaching out from the pod. Please refer to the pictures before continuing to comment.

If you choose to model yours so that it fits, I suppose that's your decision.

The clearest picture I have seen of the sporocyst shows it resting on it's base, it has a flat bottom with the tentacles stretching outwards along the 'ground'.. it is NOT resting solely on the tentacles themselves. The tentacles that stretch out downward are part of the mucolid spore cluster, thus are not used for the sporocyst.

As for ranging the weapons of the sporocyst, read the rules. Each weapon targets independently and automatically fires on the closest enemy unit (treat each weapon like a separate unit), this is why you measure from each weapon to determine range. If you have a enemy unit 6" away on both sides of the sporocyst, half the guns fire at the unit on the left, the other half fires to the right.

yes this is my interpretation too. Let's hope for some very specific rules in the box or wherever the rules appear

[rehkal]

Nov 6, 2014 18:27:19 GMT nameless said:

Nov 6, 2014 18:23:01 GMT rehkal said:

(treat each weapon like a separate unit)

You're adding rules in here. It does not say that.

I never said that was part of the rules. In fact, I didn't directly quote any rules at all. But if it makes you happy, here you go.

Instinctive Fire:
Each weapon on this model automatically fires at the nearest enemy unit within range and line of sight. The shots are resolved at the end of the Shooting Phase before Morale checks are taken. Each weapon can fire at a different target unit, but they cannot be fired in any other way or at any other time.

Note it says 'each weapon' fires automatically? It doesn't say 'this unit' fires automatically. My interpretation of this is that since each weapon is independent in targeting, range and line of sight you would treat each one separately like I originally stated. That is pretty much what instinctive fire states after all. Huh, instinctive fire doesn't allow for overwatch either does it?

[russellr]

I like the new codex format where everything is on one page for each unit. I wonder how it would turn out if someone used the current nid book and some extra pictures and essentially created a new book with each unit on a page. This would allow it to go into a ring binder with the new units as well hmmm I like that idea.

[Anggul]

Nov 6, 2014 21:59:24 GMT rehkal said:

Nov 6, 2014 18:27:19 GMT nameless said:

You're adding rules in here. It does not say that.

I never said that was part of the rules. In fact, I didn't directly quote any rules at all. But if it makes you happy, here you go.

Instinctive Fire:
Each weapon on this model automatically fires at the nearest enemy unit within range and line of sight. The shots are resolved at the end of the Shooting Phase before Morale checks are taken. Each weapon can fire at a different target unit, but they cannot be fired in any other way or at any other time.

Note it says 'each weapon' fires automatically? It doesn't say 'this unit' fires automatically. My interpretation of this is that since each weapon is independent in targeting, range and line of sight you would treat each one separately like I originally stated. That is pretty much what instinctive fire states after all. Huh, instinctive fire doesn't allow for overwatch either does it?

It might say 'each weapon' to say that it can fire each of them rather than just two like most monstrous creatures.

GW seem to like using terms that can be easily interpreted different ways just to confuse people.

Still, there isn't much point in talking about it any more until we get the White Dwarf and see the full rules.

[biomassbob]

Nov 6, 2014 21:13:51 GMT Yautja said:

This might be an unpopular opinion but...

If we're getting 8 new units plus new warlord traits, why not just print out a new codex?

Feel the same but not in GWs interests. But since we just had one that should have had all this - most dataslate ideas, new units, etc- no way we would get a new one. As was said it will likely get GW more money by all these separate supplements and then in 2 years or less release a new dex, because GW wants to put everything together for the benefit of the player, and get nid players to buy another dex.

I do hope this all helps nid players out since our very recent dex is so lackluster, unimaginative, uncompetitive and has so many things needlessly removed or problems not addressed, but if enough people buy everything GW will have hit a new way to soak customers and I see a terrible way to go forward being done with every army.

[rehkal]

Nov 6, 2014 22:06:56 GMT Anggul said:

Nov 6, 2014 21:59:24 GMT rehkal said:

I never said that was part of the rules. In fact, I didn't directly quote any rules at all. But if it makes you happy, here you go.

Note it says 'each weapon' fires automatically? It doesn't say 'this unit' fires automatically. My interpretation of this is that since each weapon is independent in targeting, range and line of sight you would treat each one separately like I originally stated. That is pretty much what instinctive fire states after all. Huh, instinctive fire doesn't allow for overwatch either does it?

It might say 'each weapon' to say that it can fire each of them rather than just two like most monstrous creatures.

GW seem to like using terms that can be easily interpreted different ways just to confuse people.

Still, there isn't much point in talking about it any more until we get the White Dwarf and see the full rules.

Maybe, maybe not. What I quoted is directly from the printed WD so what you get your hands on will not shouldn't say anything differently.

To be honest, most of GWs rules are quite clear.. as long as you take them literally word for word. It has been my experience they always FAQ exactly what they say, not what is often interpreted by the players. That is why I try to not interpret things, I just follow what is written. In this case, everything indicates treating each weapon separately.

[nameless]

Nov 6, 2014 21:59:24 GMT rehkal said:

Nov 6, 2014 18:27:19 GMT nameless said:

You're adding rules in here. It does not say that.

I never said that was part of the rules. In fact, I didn't directly quote any rules at all. But if it makes you happy, here you go.

Instinctive Fire:
Each weapon on this model automatically fires at the nearest enemy unit within range and line of sight. The shots are resolved at the end of the Shooting Phase before Morale checks are taken. Each weapon can fire at a different target unit, but they cannot be fired in any other way or at any other time.

Note it says 'each weapon' fires automatically? It doesn't say 'this unit' fires automatically. My interpretation of this is that since each weapon is independent in targeting, range and line of sight you would treat each one separately like I originally stated. That is pretty much what instinctive fire states after all. Huh, instinctive fire doesn't allow for overwatch either does it?

I guess we'll keep going in circles here, but you need to use those rules and the rules from the book.

Step one: Determine target.
The nearest enemy unit is the closest unit measured from base of the pod to the base of the unit.
Nothing in the IF rules modify this base rule.
Note that as a MC, there is not gun facing, so that does not matter (unless you are creating your own rules here)

Step two Shoot a weapon
The unit (regardless if it is firing one weapon at a time or the entire unit at a time) chooses one weapon it has then shoots with all weapons of that type in the unit.
Note the term independently has no effect here.



By using the printed rules and the BRB, that is really the only interpretation one can come to.

I could be convinced that you shoot one at a time (due to the wording of indepently) but I think that's a bit of a stretch. If would be better that way. There is still nothing on firing arcs, so they would often shoot at the same unit.

[almostmercury]

Nov 6, 2014 18:23:01 GMT rehkal said:

The clearest picture I have seen of the sporocyst shows it resting on it's base, it has a flat bottom with the tentacles stretching outwards along the 'ground'.. it is NOT resting solely on the tentacles themselves. The tentacles that stretch out downward are part of the mucolid spore cluster, thus are not used for the sporocyst.

As for ranging the weapons of the sporocyst, read the rules. Each weapon targets independently and automatically fires on the closest enemy unit (treat each weapon like a separate unit), this is why you measure from each weapon to determine range. If you have a enemy unit 6" away on both sides of the sporocyst, half the guns fire at the unit on the left, the other half fires to the right.

I'll let everyone else jump on the rules understanding. I'm pretty much bowing out of that one.

But, could you please put up that link so I could see said picture, because I've looked at 4 or 5 different photographs and can't see a base all at. The problem is that they're all photographs of book pages, so the quality is poor.

[Davor]

I am glad we didn't have to wait for the codex. I really dislike the 7th edition layout of the codices. I like how codex was done. So we have to put a few extra pages in it. Not a big deal. So much better than having photos in our unit sections.

[daboarder]

I'm actually with Davor on this one

[sockhands]

Artwork > Pics of models. We have so many freaking pics of the models.

[rehkal]

Nov 6, 2014 22:48:14 GMT nameless said:

Nov 6, 2014 21:59:24 GMT rehkal said:

I never said that was part of the rules. In fact, I didn't directly quote any rules at all. But if it makes you happy, here you go.



Note it says 'each weapon' fires automatically? It doesn't say 'this unit' fires automatically. My interpretation of this is that since each weapon is independent in targeting, range and line of sight you would treat each one separately like I originally stated. That is pretty much what instinctive fire states after all. Huh, instinctive fire doesn't allow for overwatch either does it?

I guess we'll keep going in circles here, but you need to use those rules and the rules from the book.

Step one: Determine target.
The nearest enemy unit is the closest unit measured from base of the pod to the base of the unit.
Nothing in the IF rules modify this base rule.
Note that as a MC, there is not gun facing, so that does not matter (unless you are creating your own rules here)

Step two Shoot a weapon
The unit (regardless if it is firing one weapon at a time or the entire unit at a time) chooses one weapon it has then shoots with all weapons of that type in the unit.
Note the term independently has no effect here.



By using the printed rules and the BRB, that is really the only interpretation one can come to.

I could be convinced that you shoot one at a time (due to the wording of indepently) but I think that's a bit of a stretch. If would be better that way. There is still nothing on firing arcs, so they would often shoot at the same unit.

Except that you are completely ignoring the advanced rules (which trumps basic) listed under 'instinctive fire' which clearly state 'each weapon' not 'this unit.' Whether you roll them all together or one at a time doesn't really matter in this case because you treat each weapon by itself (for target, range and LOS). If only one enemy unit it closest to all the weapons, they all fire at it. But if there are two enemy units within range there is a good chance one will be closer to specific weapons on the sporocyst. The weapons (not unit) will fire at the closest available enemy unit. And I have never said anything about using fire arcs either, the unit itself is still an MC, thus is uses the MC rules for LOS... 360*

A lot of these variables are highly situational but even LOS could change when measured from each weapon, that inch or two to the left could make the difference between seeing a unit and not seeing it. Same thing with having multiple enemy units in range and some weapons firing at unit A and others firing at unit B. That is why I keep saying the easiest way to think of it is to treat each weapon as it's own unit for LOS, range and target.


Here is the clearest images I have seen of the sporocyst. In multiple pictures you can see the horizontal tentacles are not touching the ground. The main 'bulb' of the spore is resting on the ground, it has no circular base.. kind of like a fortification.

Pictures