Vs. Space Marines v6.1

[yoritomo]

With a new tyranid codex come a new versus thread for Space Marines. The purpose of this thread is to discuss how our new codex can deal with this army in general. This is not a place to post army lists for review. This is a place to discuss what units work against the Space Marines, what units we should watch out for, tactics and army builds we expect to see when playing Space Marines, allies they usually take, and questions you might have before or after fighting a Space Marine opponent.

Fair warning, the versus threads will stay on topic at all times. The moderating staff reserves the right to move or delete any post they deem off topic, incoherent, flat out wrong, or confusing to read (i.e. out of context due to previous posts being removed). This is a serious discussion geared towards people who want to play better against the Space Marines, so let's act like it.

[NidsAndMarines]

First off, I hope this is in the right place!
So, got a 1500pt game against SM next week. Not sure what Chapter he'll play, but I'm expecting Crimson Fists w/ Pedro Kantor and he's already said he'll be packing flyers, Centurions, sternguard and plenty of grav weapons. As I have no FMC what units should I look to take?
Was thinking :
a) zoans seem a must especially against grav ie 5s to be wound but still get my 3++ and the warp burst at AP3 is a certain Marine slayer,
b) if a broodlord can get near sternguard/Centurions, the The Horror might be a useful way of limiting their pew-pew via pinning before blending in the assault,
c) Prime with boneswords should make short work of Pedro Kantor (if he's man enough to show his face!),
d) Devilgants to just bring mass weight-of-fire against any 3+Sv
Thoughts please hive?

[bolk]

a)Zoanthropes can be good against SM, but with psyker powers there`s a lot of things that can go wrong: you can fail your Psyker test, get Perils in the Warp, he can deny the witch it (be certain what psyker level his psykers are), you can roll the scatter dice way off (BS4 helps though), but against regular SM squads they can be quite devastating thanks to the AP3.
b) SM have quite high leadership, even with a -2 modifier and the Horror being a psychic power it`s not a reliable strategy. But it`s very good when it goes through. Centurions are easily tarpitted, since they can`t Overwatch (Slow and Purposeful USR) so regular Hormagaunts are actually quite useful. They have a 2+ armour save, so if you`re gonna use genestealers send them against the Centurions with their RC.
c)Sure, a Prime with Bone Swords make short work of most SMs, as long as they have a 3+ save and not a 2+. I haven`t fought Crimson Fists before, so I don`t know the stats of this Pedro Kantor If you have a Hive Tyrant I would much rather use him, since all his close combat attacks are AP2 regardless of equipment.
d)Devilgaunts are always good, and them now being 2 points cheaper per model makes them a solid Troops choice in our codex. Problem is that they die easily, and with our spore pods gone it`s even harder. Outflanking them can be a viable strategy, but that requires a Hive Tyrant with the Hive Commander upgrade.

Still, if you can write a quick list of what Tyranid models you have, it will be much easier to give you a few tips and tricks. And dude, get some Flying Hive Tyrants and Hive Crones

[WestRider]

Cantor himself isn't that bad. He's a Chapter Master with a PowerFist and an Assault 4 AP4 Storm Bolter. The nastiness lies in his special rules: He makes SternGuard Scoring, and every SM Model within 12" of him gets an extra Attack, which makes them way better at breaking Tarpits than you might be expecting.

[NidsAndMarines]

So with available models, thinking something like:
HQ:
Prime, LW&BS, TS, AG, FH
ELITES:
Zoan
Zoan
Venom
TROOPS:
5x stealers, broodlord w/ TS
5x stealers, broodloed w/ TS
30x termagants, 1x spike rifle (for 'magic bullet' 18" wound range)
20x devilgant
Tervigon, Miasma cannon, dessicator larvae, TS
HEAVY:
2x biovore
Carnifex, 2x BLD
Carnifex, 2x BLD

1500pts, on the nose.

[saxif]

I think that packing single elite slots gives away first blood. Don't understand your magic bullet comment.

You need to be able to break 3+ armour saves regularly, so either volume of fire or AP. You also need to be able to crack armour. I would recommend spreading models out, so 2 x 10 devilgants etc. I am not convinced your stealers will see combat tbh and rending is hit and miss, think about what else you could spend those points on, I think another dakka Fex and a gargoyle screen would be more effective.

I also think you are light on synapse, if he is smart he will pick off your single Zoans for first blood and breaking your synapse web.

Against marines biovores, dakkafexen, flyrants, exocrine, devilgants, zoanthropes, hive guard, Mawlocs are all strong choices but you need supporting synapse and to remember that big blobs of devilgants seem good but a whirlwind will mess them up.

[gigasnail]

if the unit he is shooting at is strung out so that there are only a few models in 12", but more from 12-18", then having one model shooting 18" in the firing unit lets you wound out to 12".

yes, we know it's silly, but that's how it works.

[saxif]

Maybe I am being dense, I still don't get it ...

If you have 3 terms in 12" range then those 3 can shoot, if you have another term with 18" range in range then you have 4 terms that can shoot. Surely that is the end of the discussion.

Are you trying to say that by having one term with greater range allows more than your 3 to shoot?

[gigasnail]

coredump i tried to explain the above but am having trouble citing exact rules. help a brother out, i am low on coffee.

[bolk]

Mar 16, 2014 11:13:32 GMT saxif said:

Maybe I am being dense, I still don't get it ...

If you have 3 terms in 12" range then those 3 can shoot, if you have another term with 18" range in range then you have 4 terms that can shoot. Surely that is the end of the discussion.

Are you trying to say that by having one term with greater range allows more than your 3 to shoot?

Let`s say you have 10 termagaunts, 9 with Fleshborers (12" range) and 1 with a Spike Rifle (18" range).
Now they`re shooting at an enemy squad of 10 models, where all 9 of the Fleshborers is in range of 5 enemy models in the front, but the termagaunt with the Spike Rifle is in range of all 10 enemy models.
The 9 shots from the Fleshborers causes for example 8 wounds. The opponent fails all of the armour saves for the 5 models in the front on the 5 first rolls, so there`s 3 wounds left in the wound pool, right?
Now, these 3 wounds can be distributed to the rest of the enemy squad thanks to the Spike Rifle termagaunt, regardless of whether he wounds with the Spike Rifle or not, and even though the Fleshborers isn`t in range.
As long as the Fleshborers is in range of even 1 model of the enemy squad, they can distribute wounds to the enemy squad as far as the range of the Termagaunt with the Spike Rifle allows.

[saxif]

Right, gotta, think I/we might have misinterpreted some rules <runs to get rule book and look up shooting>

[WestRider]

Also look in the Main Rulebook FAQ. There's one particular entry that's crucial to getting this.

[gigasnail]

yeah that's the part i couldn't really nail down. which FAQ entry.

[shrike]

Mar 17, 2014 11:52:21 GMT bolk said:

Mar 16, 2014 11:13:32 GMT saxif said:

Maybe I am being dense, I still don't get it ...

If you have 3 terms in 12" range then those 3 can shoot, if you have another term with 18" range in range then you have 4 terms that can shoot. Surely that is the end of the discussion.

Are you trying to say that by having one term with greater range allows more than your 3 to shoot?

Let`s say you have 10 termagaunts, 9 with Fleshborers (12" range) and 1 with a Spike Rifle (18" range).
Now they`re shooting at an enemy squad of 10 models, where all 9 of the Fleshborers is in range of 5 enemy models in the front, but the termagaunt with the Spike Rifle is in range of all 10 enemy models.
The 9 shots from the Fleshborers causes for example 8 wounds. The opponent fails all of the armour saves for the 5 models in the front on the 5 first rolls, so there`s 3 wounds left in the wound pool, right?
Now, these 3 wounds can be distributed to the rest of the enemy squad thanks to the Spike Rifle termagaunt, regardless of whether he wounds with the Spike Rifle or not, and even though the Fleshborers isn`t in range.
As long as the Fleshborers is in range of even 1 model of the enemy squad, they can distribute wounds to the enemy squad as far as the range of the Termagaunt with the Spike Rifle allows.

Wow so adding in a spike rifle could actually do quite a bit for a termagant brood then?

[bolk]

Mar 18, 2014 18:38:22 GMT shrike said:

Mar 17, 2014 11:52:21 GMT bolk said:

Let`s say you have 10 termagaunts, 9 with Fleshborers (12" range) and 1 with a Spike Rifle (18" range).
Now they`re shooting at an enemy squad of 10 models, where all 9 of the Fleshborers is in range of 5 enemy models in the front, but the termagaunt with the Spike Rifle is in range of all 10 enemy models.
The 9 shots from the Fleshborers causes for example 8 wounds. The opponent fails all of the armour saves for the 5 models in the front on the 5 first rolls, so there`s 3 wounds left in the wound pool, right?
Now, these 3 wounds can be distributed to the rest of the enemy squad thanks to the Spike Rifle termagaunt, regardless of whether he wounds with the Spike Rifle or not, and even though the Fleshborers isn`t in range.
As long as the Fleshborers is in range of even 1 model of the enemy squad, they can distribute wounds to the enemy squad as far as the range of the Termagaunt with the Spike Rifle allows.

Wow so adding in a spike rifle could actually do quite a bit for a termagant brood then?

Sure, although I`d rather put in 50/50 Fleshborers and Devourers if I don`t go all Devilgaunts that is. I find it more useful with Warrior broods with BS or VC.