Swarmlordstar rules question

[brianb9999]

Hey Hive,

Just hoping to get some clarification before an upcoming tourney regarding the Swarmlordstar (Swarmy, Tyranid Prime, one Tyrant Guard).

Let's say you form up your deathstar at the beginning of the game, and eventually the Tyrant Guard tanks the first 2 unsaved wounds. You are left with what?

A. Swarmlord and Tyranid Prime that still count as a unit because they were a unit before the TGuard died. Because of this, either unit can Lo,S wounds on a 2+ (assuming all normal rules for shooting apply). If the Prime leaves the unit, however, he can no longer return since the Swarmlord can only ever be a 1 model unit.

B. Swarmlord and Tyranid Prime that immediately are no longer considered a unit. Since they both technically joined a Tyrant Guard brood, and the lone Tyrant Guard is dead, and the Swarmlord can only ever be one model, the Tyranid Prime can no longer be part of his unit.

C. Swarmlord and Tyranid Prime that still count as a unit because they were a unit before the TGuard died. Because of this, either unit can Lo,S wounds (assuming all normal rules for shooting apply), but the Swarmlord can now only do so on a 4+, as his IC status is invalidated without Tyrant Guard present. If the Prime leaves the unit, however, he can no longer return since the Swarmlord can only ever be a 1 model unit.

So at first I was just playing it as A, which I then figured to be wrong since Swarmy no longer has IC status when the Guard dies. So my brother and I were discussing it and figured C was the most plausible answer, though he thought there could be some merit to choice B.

Any thoughts?

[Raven]

Looking at the relevant rule, I'd say A is the correct way to play it, as the Swarmlord joined the unit as an Independent Character and will remain so until the rest of the unit is dead/leaves the unit.

[Uhtin]

A is the correct one as long as I understand it

[edjammies]

In the FAQ under Shieldwall, it reads:

"A single Hive Tyrant[Swarmlord] may join a unit of Tyrant Guard exactly as it had the Independent Character special rule, and while part of the unit, is treated as such for the purposes of Look Out, Sir..."

So as long as the Prime doesn't leave the unit, then the Swarmlord is still an IC per the pre-existing rule of Shieldwall.

Choice A makes the most sense.

[infornography]

Choice A is the most correct answer by RAW, but if you are going into a tourney it is always a good idea to ask the TO ahead of time which way they plan to rule. Often if you give them time before things start to look things over they will give a better answer than when put on the spot during a game.

[brianb9999]

Thanks for your input everybody...was going to check it last night but got too involved in my battle against an Azrael guard blob. I'll reread the rulebook tonight.

[Jabberwocky]

If you look at the IC rules, when an IC moves he needs to be within 2" of a unit to join/stay in.

If he ends his move 2"+ away, that is how he leaves a unit.

On your movement phase following losing the guard, your Prime would then leave the unit automatically at the end of the phase, as there is no unit for him to join, as the Swarmlord alone is a solo character.

That's the way I'd see it.

[infornography]

As long as he stays within 2" of the swarmlord I think they would still function as a unit though. It is a tricky limbo area part of the rules and I wish there was an FAQ on it, but I suspect at this point that we will get a new codex before we will get an FAQ covering it.

You make a solid point though and it does leave room for definite valid dispute.

[coredump]

There is still a unit there, and the Prime is still within 2" of that unit. The SLord and Prime are still a unit until one voluntarily leaves. Once separated, they can't move back together.


IOW, if you have a unit of 3 guards, 1 SLord and 1 Prime; and they are in a straight line Prime-SL-TG-TG-TG Is the Prime still part of that unit? Eventhough it is 4" away from a TG?
Of course it is, because all 5 models are part of that unit, including the SLord. Once those three TG die, the two left are still a unit.

[Jabberwocky]

There is a unit there, but is it still a valid unit?

A Prime and warriors are a scoring unit and can control mysterious objectives etc. If the element of the unit granting those scoring rules dies, the Prime can no longer benefit, even if still in the unit for example if there were 2 Primes attached.

By the same logic, once the models with Shieldwall are dead, the Tyrant is no longer a valid target for joining. If an IC ends it's move more than 2" from a valid target, it is solo.

[gigasnail]

a prime could not join a tyrant/swarmlord after all the tguard are dead, correct. however, there is nothing that automatically kicks the prime out if the unit if all the guard die after he joins.

the meat on page 39 BRB is that the rules check once when the IC joins the unit, and checks at the end of the owning player's movement phase. that's pretty much the only time it checks. there is nothing that triggers upon the death of anything in the unit to make the rule check again, aside from at the end of the owning player's movement phase. there is no language in the rules that talk about checking for a 'valid target' for an IC after he's already joined a unit, except for being out of coherency at the end of his movement phase.

it is correct that if the prime ends its movement phase more than 2" away from the tyrant, it is solo and can't re-join.

i'm pretty sure w/o scouring the rulebook, that if you had a unit with 3 guard, swarmy, and a prime all at max coherency lined up like:

SL-TG-TG-TG-PR

and something killed all three tyrant guard during the enemy shooting phase, the prime and SL are still in the same unit at the start of your turn, and as long as they end their movement phase in coherency with each other, they're still a unit together.

[coredump]

May 30, 2013 5:32:08 GMT Jabberwocky said:

A Prime and warriors are a scoring unit and can control mysterious objectives etc. If the element of the unit granting those scoring rules dies, the Prime can no longer benefit, even if still in the unit for example if there were 2 Primes attached.

It is no longer scoring....but it is still a unit. And that is all that matters for our scenario

By the same logic, once the models with Shieldwall are dead, the Tyrant is no longer a valid target for joining. If an IC ends it's move more than 2" from a valid target, it is solo.

You are making up rules that don't exist. There is nothing that makes an IC continually check to see if the could still join the unit they are in.
As you say, the Tyrant is no longer a valid target for joining... but the Prime *isn't* joining, they are already a unit.
If the prime ends more than 2" from that unit, then it has left the unit.