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Post by Hive Bahamut on May 18, 2013 18:30:08 GMT
So generally we play 1000 points just because they are fast, and up until now our scenery was on the light side. Moving up to 1500 I thought it would be fun (stupid me this is a game,) to try to bring in some of my bench warmers. Also I threw the Gargoyles in because I had exactly 70 left over.
Flying Devilrant w Old Adversary ( rolled double 6's for psychic powers for the second game in a row, I really hate hemorrhage.. 2x Zoeys (first time not podding them) 2x Hive Guard 20x Devilgants in pod ( first time filling pod up.) 5x Warriors w Whip n Sword in pod (first time in pod) Tervigon w Catalyst Toxin Sacs 10x Gargoyles w Toxin Sacs Trygon w Toxin Sacs
Grey Knights: Inquisitor in Terminator Armour with Psycannon 2 10x Strike squads w 2 Hammer and Psycannon (Psybolt) Purgation squad w 4x Psycannons Dreadnought w 2x Psy- Autocannons Dreadknight w Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Teleporter 5x Interceptors w Incinerator and Falchions
Rolled Crusade and Hammer and Anvil. Night fighting first turn and I won deployment, with three objectives, ( which generally don't matter against GK, surviving is all I generally try to do.)
Turn 1 Gants, warriors and Trygon all deep striking in, so Flyrant and the rest setup shop and move up. Hive Guard and Zoeys take shots at Purgation and Dreadknight, killing the Justicar of Purgation.
Grey Knights: Shoot everything dead except 1 gargoyle and 2 wounds left on Tervigon. I roll for reserves, nothing comes in, call game.
I knew taking a fun unit wasn't the best idea escalating up, but holy #&%$ those Knights... I love that my regular opponent has decided to stop using his new Daemons book because it is too powerful vs Nids when this type of victory is more common with Knights than Daemons. I refuse to play with my Elfdar too, they are even worse.
As I try to not make WAAC lists I have avoided dual Flyrants, but it might just take some cheese to counter some more. The worst thing is our best cheese (Tervigon,) becomes nothing more than a single wound creature in assault and a huge target for Psy wonderfulness.) As I play Knights all the time it is frustrating handing out 5-1 wins just because they have so many Nids counters. We have shadows, that is IT. I can't continue to enjoy these beatings.. Sad when it gets to rolling for deployment and I can predict the game outcome.
Cant use Psykers... Grenades and Nemesis Can't use MC... Force weapons/ Psycannons Can't use Puds... Incinerators Can't use Midzilla.. Force and Psyrifle Can't use Genestealers... Everything Can't hold Objectives.. Dreadknight/Interceptors Can... Roll a bunch of dice for dead Nids.
I am very patient and try to believe I am solution oriented. I have no answers for Knights at 1000, let alone 1500. Need help!
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Post by gigasnail on May 18, 2013 19:11:00 GMT
couple of things:
- reserves don't come in until turn 2. we aren't space marines and mycetic spores don't have drop pod assault rules. wish they did. the only thing they have in common are the pseudo inertial guidance system where if the pod scatters onto an obstacle, you move it the minimum distance so that it doesn't mishap. you still have to place it legally and it can still mishap if it goes off the board. you do get to deploy the pod's contents 6" now instead of the 2" it was originally.
- warriors are bad (expensive, bad armor save, T4 dies enmasse to common weapons), they're very bad when you make them expensive by kitting them with sword/whip and pod them so they can't do anything other than stand there and die for a turn. some use for them as backfield synapse anchor, but i'd rather have another tervigon as my backline babysitter.
- you did get sorta hosed on the flyrant's powers, not much to do if the dice gods hate you. this is why i run two flyrants. remember the zoanthropes/tervs can at least cast endurance on them if one doesn't get iron arm.
- get crushing claws and 3 powers on the tervigons if possible. the CC turn tervs from mediocre to flat nasty in assault because of smash and how those attacks are calculated, you generally just loose 1 attack to go at S10.
- GK are nasty. i'd take a 2nd flyrant and a 2nd tervigon. drop the trygon and the warriors and move some gribblies around to make sure you have the points to kit the flyrants and tervs. keep the MC's in cover if facing AP3 or better firepower, remember they get cover just by being in area terrain now and yes, that includes swooping MC's as well.
-keep the flyrants swooping and shooting and in cover. they do not pack the equipment to take on dedicated CC units in assault and come out unscathed. finish weakened weapon teams off, not assault units with power weapons and grenades.
do not think of dual flyrant/dual terv as cheese. it is basically our only viable build and is only viable because of iron arm, endurance, and hard to hit on the flyrants.
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Post by revx on May 18, 2013 20:23:20 GMT
your write up makes no sense.
first of all you have 8 units vs his 7. some how he shoots at every unit, i know about PotMS but its kind of not believable.
then you say 1st turn you deepstrike in trygon, warr, and gants. you moved zoans, hive guard, and flyrant. he took wounds off the tervi and gargs so what did you have in reserves? something not listed im guessing.
unless your saying the trygon, warr, and gants were in reserve awaiting to deepstrike T2.
details seem to be unclear or missing altogether, can you post more info?
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Post by ranmafan on May 18, 2013 20:31:04 GMT
Analysis: If you must tailor your army against this opponent, your main advantage is that he only has 7 units. His army has a lot of Psycannons - that's a lot of S7/8 shooting. Which means your T6 models aren't very durable against them. Don't bother bringing too many MCs. His main weakness is that with only 7 units, he can only shoot at 7 units of yours. So bring a TON of small, expendable units. Area terrain and walls of models for cover saves are your greatest strength. His army looks very shooting heavy, with an assassin Strike Squad meant to slaughter priority targets.
Your list basically relies on too many pods without Hive Commander (and only 1 vulnerable model with it!), too few models/units, and Warriors (which aren't worth it). Your synapse models are: Flyrant, Zoanthropes, Tervigon, Warriors. However almost all the models are IB: Lurk with short-ranged weapons.
Because the GK list is VERY strong in shooting, and has Nemesis weapons, drowning them in W1 T3 models in close combat is the preferred method for dealing with them. However they have a few lychpins that can dismantle the army as well. I will cover them later.
Model by model analysis: Inquisitor in Terminator Armour with Psycannon - Rolls divination, probably attached to the Purgation or one of the Strike squads. Divination gives a lot of bonuses that have no real downsides. As an MC killer HQ, prioritize as target. - Main strength is his Psychic abilities being a force multiplier. His shooting isn't that impressive despite the profile. Your main goal is to lock down his ability to cast spells with SitW and tarpitting.
2 10x Strike squads w 2 Hammer and Psycannon (Psybolt) - Basic troops. Heavy guns, but standard 3+ Armour saves. Weight of wounds will deal with them. Nasty, but can be tarpitted. - Although it's painful, you can ignore these for a while.
Purgation squad w 4x Psycannons - Big guns 1: Able to take down an MC in 1 good turn of shooting w/ the Inquisitor. Priority target. - These are the ones able to easily kill a Tervi or your Flyrant in 1 turn of shooting. Since he only has 1 unit - bring your Gargoyles to bear.
Dreadnought w 2x Psy- Autocannons - Painful, sure. But nothing Hive Guards can't handle.
Dreadknight w Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Teleporter - Painful, but as a single MC he can be taken down by 20-30 Gargoyles/Termagants w/ Toxin sacs. Failing that, he doesn't have the volume of attacks necessary to wipe out 30 wounds' worth of gribblies.
5x Interceptors w Incinerator and Falchions - Painful, but can be whittled down with Hive Guards and constant shooting from Tervigons. Bubble wrap your Tervis.
List building: I don't know your model situation, but if you want to field a list against his GK I suggest modifying your list to:
1x Flyrant w/ 2x Devs
3x 2 Hive Guards - Even with IB: Lurk, they can still shoot anything in their LOS at 24", and once you've gained the middle of the map Synapse doesn't become a problem for them.
2x 10 Termagants 2x Tervigons - Toxin Sacs, 3x Psychic powers (or just catalyst and keep that) - Yes, fairly easy units to kill and disrupt the army, but that's why you have 2 covered in other models. (And I do suggest if you want to be absolutely sure of survivability, keep catalyst, spam that, and use your 15*2 points elsewhere)
2x 15 Gargoyles w/ Toxin Sacs - 30 wounds of fast-moving goodness. I'd take 2x20 if you have that many to spare.
1x 5 Raveners w/ Rending Claws - They can operate independently of Synapse (IB: Feed), rending claws give them killing power, and their main job is to tarpit/kill Cortez and cortez only. But don't charge them into him so quickly - you need to bog down his supporting guns first.
This should be 1495 - tweak the list as you see fit, but it's a relatively solid list. (Yes, I know everyone takes Tervis, but this is how I'd do it.) If you take only 2x psychic powers per Tervi (or just drop one power on one) you can have 6 raveners w/ rending claws You now have 11 units for him to shoot at. It's quite likely he can only focus fire on 3 units at the most - leaving 8 units free to fight back.
Start:
Gargoyles at the front line w/ Flyrant
Raveners behind Gargoyle/Flyrant line.
Tervigons placed side by side/Inverted V shape, bubble wrapped on both sides by Termagants. Hive Guards are between the two Tervigons as a fire base.
Keep the Termagants 7" away from the Tervigons when they move. You only need the toxin sac bonuses when they're in combat.
If you get Hammer and Anvil, deploy to one extreme side as close to the middle as you can. Force him to only shoot at you from one side. You want to come up from one flank, and constantly present your gribbliest side to him so he has to work through them to get at your MCs easily.
If you get Dawn of War, deploy at about 3/4 of the way to one side of the table. You still have a strong flanking ability but won't be forced to slog too far if he deploys into a corner.
For Vanguard - deploy closer to the large table edge so he's forced to deploy towards the small table edge and clump together, or be within easy striking distance.
Tactics:
Turn 1: Gargoyles, Flyrant and Raveners move forward. You Tarpit the Dreadknight with 1 brood of Gargoyles if you can, shoot it to soften it up first. Raveners should stay low profile and behind the gargoyles/Flyrant.
Termagants/Tervigon/Hive Guard blob move up - termagants remain 7" away from Tervigon whenever possible. Tervigons will be casting FNP on the Flyrant and themselves if you rolled Endurance. Their main goal is to mop up the GK's forward elements (Dreadknight, Interceptors, etc.) - the Hive Guards' main targets are the Dreadnought and Dreadknight, in that order.
Turn 2: Now, if you have enough models and your Tervigons both survived to spawn at least 10 termagants each, you have 2 choices: attempt to charge it with Termagants to ensure it doesn't leave battle for the rest of the game, or finish it off with a Ravener charge. This is because you do NOT want the Dreadknight challenging your Flyrant/Tervigon and being immune to combat for a turn. Keep moving these units forward. Remember to keep casting FNP on whoever needs it. Your main target is coming up next - Cortez.
The Flyrant, remaining Gargoyles and Raveners should prioritize Cortex next. You want to lock him down in CC - remember the first rule of Overwatch when charging: Always send the expendables in first. Throw your gargoyles at him, then the Raveners. Your Flyrant can choose to charge if it wants, but by now Cortez should have plenty to worry about. Keep your flyrant swooping and using vector strikes in subsequent turns (assuming it survives) is probably a better idea.
Beyond turn 2: Once/If you get Cortez in the bag, your main concern will be the Dreadknight (assuming it's still alive and not being eaten by 40 termagants), if not your next problem will be the Interceptor squads. Hopefully your hive guards finished the Dreadnought in 1 turn, and can focus their fire on them. It's a relatively small unit - with enough shooting they become less of a problem. Nemesis weapons will spoil your day, so if he has ANY brotherhood banners (which automatically activate Nemesis weapons) AND you get Precision Shots w/ your Tervigons/Flyrant, TAKE THEM and KILL that bugger!
If Cortez is winning against all odds after 1 turn of combat, throw your flyrant in. Your Tervigons should be swamping the Strike Squads by now (or probably just 1 left alive at this point) - if it can still spawn, let it spawn and keep the Tervigon out of combat as long as you can. But don't wait too long - if it looks like your Termagants won't survive another turn of combat, throw the Tervigon in (and challenge, if you can.). It strikes at I1 anyway and can force SitW for anyone attempting to activate their Nemesis weapons, but should ideally be a last resort, only there to cast Catalyst on whoever's locked in combat.
Note that at this stage, you've probably taken 80% casualties. In my experience, the thing to remember with GK is that they simply do NOT have the unit count to keep up with Nids whether in holding objectives or targeting models - 95% or more casualties are expected in a game like this. The most important thing is to be the one holding an objective and as many secondary VPs as possible at the end of the game, while denying him all objectives.
Hope that helped.
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Post by grarik on May 18, 2013 21:00:20 GMT
One thing I need to make note of Ranmafan, grey knights have a lot of s7 shooting, very little s8, psybolt ammo doesn't upgrade psycannons
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Post by commandersasha on May 18, 2013 22:06:18 GMT
Ranmafan, I'm printing that lot out and sticking it in my playbook!
3 years of playing 'Nids, and I'd never heard of, nor thought of, the 7" buffer for Termagants from their mum! Thank-you!
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Post by gigasnail on May 18, 2013 22:14:57 GMT
dont recommend using ravenors against GK. forceweapons all around, couple of hammers in the list as well.
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Post by coredump on May 19, 2013 0:12:51 GMT
It wasn't written very clearly, but he was saying those three units were DSing in, therefore everything else sets up and moves...
Do you realize that you can't get the same power twice? So if you roll a 6, then roll again, getting a 6 means you reroll. If you swapped the 6 for the primaris, then you could get stuck, which is why I never swap my first roll.
We really need more info on that first round of shooting... I just don't see how it is possible without loaded dice, and even then not sure...
Psycannons are a pain, but your TMCs still get their 3+ save, and they still need a 6 to hit the flyrant.
What did the flyrant shoot at? He should have been able to take out most of that Purgation squad. Did you keep the flyrant on the flank, or did you fly him up the middle?
Lets look at averages: With 7 psycannons, and 1 dread, since you were nice and moved everything into range... he gets 32 shots.
It should take 27 shots to take off those 4 wounds on the terv It should take 22 shots to kill the two zoans It should take 14 shots to kill the two HGuard (assuming a 5+ cover save) It should take 108 shots to kill a swooping flyrant (Ignoring the possibility of grounding) It should take 27 shots to kill a *grounded* flyrant
Now do you see why we are confused? Lets say the Purgation squad took out something.... that only leaves 16 shots to take out 12 more wounds. Just what in the world happened? (I have to assume you guys are misunderstanding some rule interaction, so the more you can explain, the more we may be able to help you.)
Lets look at tactics.
Those Psycannons are a pain, and a decent threat to your TMCs, but he only has 7, and 4 of them are in one small squad. Those devilgaunts take out 5 marines a turn on average. And those psycannons only have a 24" range.
So turn 1 *don't* move everything forward. Psycannons are only 24"; if they move forward to get into range, they only get 2 shots (instead of 4, unless the unit has relentless). You might move up the flyrant on a flank, if you can get him within 18" of a decent target, but out of range of most/much of his army. The HT should do some decent killing, and then need 6's to get hit. You can move up the
Turn 2, when the devilgaunts come down, drop them down and take out the purgation squad. Poof...there goes over half of his psycannons.
In general, you are better off starting the Trygon on the board, when he DS's, he is still stuck doing nothing for a turn.
Zoans are almost always better off trading for BRB powers. An Endurance or two could have saved some damage. (Or telekine dome, etc.) Hive guard should be out of LoS, if not possible, at least in cover.
Out of your 1500 points, you started 750pts in reserves.... he had a 2 to 1 advantage on your first turn
That warrior squad is expensive, and a bit tricky to use correctly, you need to drop them where they can safely hide for a round, yet still close enough where they can charge something. If you want a CC warrior brood, I think you are better off going Shrikes. (Still need to use lots of cover.)
10 gargs are not really enough to be effective, I realize you had points to spend; just letting you know.
So, reimagine that game, but with 5 Shrikes on the board, and the Trygon. You flank the flyrant so you can take out most of the Interceptors, and only take shooting from 2 psycannons. The rest of your army stays at 25" away, and the Gargs/HGuard/shrikes are in cover.
Either he moves up, and does *half* the damage (18 shots), or he stays back and does just about nothing
Turn 2 the gaunts show up and take out the purgation squad. The Hive Guard move up and take out the Dreadnought Flyrant swoops and shoots, or glides and takes out that dread knight.
If they moved up to shoot, that puts the Shrikes into range, and any spawned gaunts, and the garbs....
Very different game.
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Post by gigasnail on May 19, 2013 1:36:01 GMT
ok yeah that makes a bit more sense. you have to be careful when/what you deep strike. your list definitely needed some tweaking, but you took half of your list off the table for him and then marched the rest right into the meatgrinder and let his entire army shoot at it. hard to come back from that.
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Post by Hive Bahamut on May 19, 2013 6:47:13 GMT
Haha yeah I did roll for the three units on second turn for reserves, but called it after nothing came in. Don't generally flop my reserves. Honestly the Warriors just jump in my list every once in a while because they are fun to use when they get somewhere. That unit aside, my Flyrant wasn't swooping but was 1/2" or so in range of the Purgation once a few moved up. Enough Rending.. (He was in terrain) I generally just dive bomb him in to hurt them, I was hoping to keep him out of range first turn. Lesson learned. Zoeys were going to switch out but after rolling double hemorrhage.. No way. I would have rather had shooting than ham again ![:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/sad.png) They died to a Strike squads Psybolt. Gargoyles got chewed apart by the Interceptors Incinerator +30" tele move, and the Dreadknight did the same to finish off the Tyrant and my Hive Guard with a scatter blast. My Tervigon was wounded by the second Strike Squad and the Dreadnought. With 2 wounds left and a Gargoyle another shooting phase and poof, even with a summoned Gant squad. Yes the small squad sizes hurt, but again trial and error.. I have: 2x Flyrant w 2x Brainleech Swarm lord w Guard Prime w Whip n Sword Deathspitter Doom +2 Zoanthropes 3 Hive Guard 45ish Genestealers w 3Broodlords 6 Warriors w Whip n Sword, Devourers 30 Devilgants 30 Termagants 2 Tervigons 5 Ripper Bases! 20 Gargoyles 1 Trygon/Prime 1 Biovore (the last missing 2 additions until new Dex..) 2 pods Something like... 570 2x Flyrant w 2x Brainleech Old Adversary 100 2x 10 Termagants 410 2x Tervigon Toxin Sacs, Catalyst, Onslaught, Scything Talons (last 10 points on ST) 100 2x Hive Guard 180 3x Zoanthropes 140 20x Gargoyles w Toxin Sacs This list should do better, I should know better than to take fun units against GK. He he.
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Post by gigasnail on May 19, 2013 19:05:38 GMT
that's a good list.
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Post by coredump on May 19, 2013 19:34:05 GMT
Hmmm.... I think we can help you beat this guy. But some of what you posted raises more questions. That unit aside, my Flyrant wasn't swooping but... There is really no reason to not be swooping on first turn. This was a mistake, and it cost you a *lot*. It is 4x easier to hit a gliding HT. There is really no way the Purgation squad could have killed a swooping flyer. I want to look at this in detail, you may be misunderstanding some rules. First, *every* model that wants to shoot needs to be in range. If a 'few' move up, the others still can't shoot. Second, each model that moved, now only gets 2 shots with the psycannon, not 4. So, assuming you did land out of range. Then all 4 need to move up, that means only 8 shots, 5.33 hits, .89 rend+ 2.7 wounds; .6 + .9 = 1.5 unsaved wounds. Flyrant should still be alive, unless you got really unlucky. (If it was swooping... likely zero wounds) How many shots did he take? Did you guys follow all of the rules correctly? The Flyrant is not a 'dive bomb' unit. He is a beast if you correctly pick targets, but is destroyed if you are careless. Even if you want to get into CC on tun 2, should be swooping turn 1 First, did you see above where I talked about the rule of rerolling if you get the same power? You *can't* get double Haem. Second, don't take probability personally. It is a better idea to switch out the powers, if one goes bad, it is still a better idea. You spooked yourself into making a bad tactical choice, after you had made a good strategic one. Besides, Haem isn't as bad, if you can get some Enfeebles to help out.... Okay... wtf? First, did you move into their range? Or did they have to move into yours? Second, I assume you moved into their range, and that they didn't move. That still means only 4 shots with the psycannon. How did they manage to do 4 wounds with 4 shots?? The need to hit, then wound, then fail a 3+ save.... rending won't even help here. Assuming they used their bolters also, that is reasonable. He used a 200pt unit to kill 60pts of gargs. (and left himself within range of assault.) Wait, what? I thought the HIve guard moved up and shot, and the tyrant was out of range. How were they next to each other? So the HT could only get hit once, then the 4+ wound, and fail the 3+ save? (BTW, if swooping, that template couldn't even hit the flyrant.) Other than that, killing the HGuard makes sense. He used a 275pt model to kill 100pts of hive guard. Again, did the Terv move within 24" of the strike squad, or did they have to move to you?(thereby only getting 2 shots) Even assuming they got all 8 shots, that is only a bit more than 6 hits. Which is about 4 wounds. DId you miss every 3+ save?? I just don't understand how he could have possibly done that much damage? Either you guys were not following the rules, or he should have bought a lottery ticket after the game. Your list was okay (again, if you want CC warriors, I would go Shrike), you just put too many in reserve.
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Post by ranmafan on May 20, 2013 8:36:06 GMT
Well, if the GK player got first turn then no, the HT would be gliding and burned down fast. Beyond that his main mistake was not putting enough units on the table.
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Post by cibissum on May 20, 2013 14:14:52 GMT
Well, if the GK player got first turn then no, the HT would be gliding and burned down fast. Beyond that his main mistake was not putting enough units on the table. Based on the story though, it sounds like he got first turn. Since he moved up. Then the Knights shot everything on the board up, then he started his second turn and found no reserves coming so called it there. At least that's how it reads to me. So yeah, really should have been swooping with the Tyrant. Making them hit on 6s with a chance of a grounding hit is much better than entire squads hitting on 3s like marines tend to do.
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Post by Hive Bahamut on May 21, 2013 23:08:45 GMT
Haha ya I have gone over the battle in my head after reading this and came to this conclusion.
1. I added the warriors in the pod which was too points heavy to be the third unit in reserves. It would have been alright if I walked the Trygon for example.
2. Not swooping like I usually do would have been fine had I premeasured the setup of the Purgation. ( Four moving up =8 +4 shots from Terminator Inqusitor being relentless, all Twin linked from prescience. Yes rolling was bad.
3. Rolling double Haem is possible... I roll a 6 then take smite. Roll a six and... haem. I have kept it so I can't get again but I hate that. Zoeys powers are fine, and honestly my favorite way to kill MC. Enfeeble plus Warp Lance = win
4. Gargoyles were an afterthought and although they never did get wiped (1 left,) stupid add in. Should have had more or none at all.
5. Our table is about 4" shy either side, so typical dimensions are scaled a little. Being overconfident moving to a new points left me blind of the few extra inches I'm usually so keen on.
Thanks again for all the help, sorry I wasn't more clear in my write up.
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