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Post by milkybarnid on May 4, 2013 14:57:40 GMT
Carnifexes Living Battering Ram rule changed to this;
This rule has the following effects depending on the number of Carnifexes in the brood.
1: A unit charged by a carnifex loses its Immunity to fear tests in CC (if it does), ATSKNF and Fearless still apply to any other morale tests. (If a unit brakes away, the carnifex brood must charge it again for this effect to take place again)
2: In addition to the above, enemy units suffer a -1 modifier to their fear tests.
3: Same as above but with -2 however due to the clumsiness of carnifexes in their rage, they can no longer make sweeping advances.
Carnifexes should also come this;
Thickened Carapace: The carapace of carnifexes is as strong as power armour, combined with their obscene strength, they can shrug off hardened strikes or shots that would killed a mortal being. the Carnifex has a 5+ invulnerable save
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Post by gigasnail on May 5, 2013 23:49:27 GMT
while we're shooting for the moon, impaler cannon as a 10 point purchased option for warrior broods
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Post by warfrogger on May 6, 2013 14:16:22 GMT
Not sure if it was this thread or another but I mentioned a rebuild for the carnifex I would like. Cause lets face it, every roll it can do something else can do better for less points. My thoughts were make it a fast living battering ram shock and awe MC by any combination of the following: -Make its unit type Beast Monstrous Creature: Not very likely because beast is a unit type, not a modifier like jump/jet pack. This would make it move 12 in the movement and have a charge reroll. -Give it D3 or D6 hammer of wraith attacks as its described to charge headlong into, and several cases through, infantry and mech alike -Give it a weapon option that gives it armorbane. Crushing claws look like they would be capable of this. Give the current crushing claw effect to scythe tail so people who like the current ones can still gain it another way -Give it either Concussive on all its attacks or lash whip effect on a turn it charges. -Allow it to tank shock infantry. Not sure how effective this would (haven't actually looked up tank shock since 5th) be but more fluff based then anything.
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Post by yoritomo on May 8, 2013 3:31:32 GMT
You want to talk about a 6th edition tyranid codex? Sure, I'll have a go.
The first thing we need to realize when we talk about a 6th edition codex is that the tervigon is going to get nerfed, hardcore. Now, contrary to popular belief, this is not because everyone has bought tervigons. The reason is because the unit isn't preforming like it was designed to. Stop and think about this for a second, what do you think a swarm army is? Back in 2nd edition it was a hundred gaunts along with some synapse support and some specialist bugs thrown in. Same thing in 3rd edition and 4th edition. But what is a swarm army in the current edition? 20 termagants and as many tervigons as you can fit in the army.
Now think about that for a second. A "swarm" army can have as little as 30 models in it. That's three full squads of space marines. Is it really a swarm army if it is outnumbered by 500 points of space marines?
Besides, the tervigon is hands down one of the best psykers in 6th edition. I'm pretty sure that wasn't what GW had in mind when they were making the tervigon. Any psyker that's better than an eldar farseer is either a special character or a mistake. Guess which category the tervigon falls into?
What I would like to see in the next codex is three simple rules.
There's too many of them!- Tyranid invasions are long and perilous. To represent the panic units feel in a tyranid invasion all units are required to shoot at the closest tyranid unit. If a unit wishes to shoot at another tyranid unit they must make a leadership check at their base leadership. If they pass then they may ignore this rule for the rest of the turn.
Shoot the big ones!- Everone is taught that the best way to stop tyranids is to kill the larger tyranids and the smaller ones will go to pieces. To represent this any unit may choose to shoot the closest Tyranid Monstrous Creature instead of the closest tyranid unit.
They're all around us!- Some tyranids are so frightening that units are compelled to shoot at them when seen. To represent this, if a unit a tyranid unit with this rule is the closest tyranid unit then all tests to ignore the "There's too many of them!" are taken at -2 penalty.
So think about what these rules do. The first one really screws with how your opponent chooses to fight you. It also makes large units of gaunts viable since it will take several unit to remove a 30 gaunt squad. Warriors become more viable as well because they are harder to shoot since they can hide behind gaunts. Your opponent has to play differently when his missile launcher squad isn't guaranteed to be able to shoot your warriors.
The second rule balances these out since it really isn't fair to have a devastator squad be forced to shoot at gaunts when a hive tyrant is right behind them. But even then you are still afforded a degree of protection for your MCs because they still have to shoot the closest MC. This makes a carnifex more viable because if you set him in front of a tervigon or hive tyrant it's like giving them an 8+ sv on 2d6 against MEQ.
The last rule lets us design an army around these new rules. Let's say we give the last one to lictors, spore mines, and the carnifex; what does that do? It adds a new dimension to these units. Now instead of the carnifex being a pointless unit it becomes a unit you want out in front to have it draw fire. To me that is what a spearhead unit should be. The lictor also gains something when he appears. It isn't as good as assaulting the turn you arrive, but dictating how your opponent shoots for a turn is worth the points of a lictor. Besides, imagine this: the lictor pops out of the woods and the IG platoon immediately turns around as empties all their weapons into the forest. Doesn't that sound like something from the predator movies? And don't we all think of the lictor as the tyranid version of the predator?
More than anything else this makes us a unique army. When you play eldar you know you're playing against psykers. When you play against orks you know you're playing against a horde, When you play MEQ you know you're playing MEQ. When you play against tyranids you know your armies discipline is going to break down. This identity also goes well with a close combat style army since the closer you get the more you naturally want to shoot at the close models.
I also think that something needs to be done about assaulting into cover. I don't think frag grenades or ignoring the cover penalty is the answer. I think we'd be better served by something like the 4th edition catalyst psychic power. Basically all it says is that tyranid causalities are removed at the Int 0 step of close combat. This will let us assault into cover and still get our full attacks. It's extremely fluffy as it shows how powerful the hive mind is by forcing individuals to fight even though they are critically wounded. At the same time it shows how expendable tyranids are because as soon as they are finished attacking the wounded tyranids just keel over dead.
Anyway, those are my two bits.
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Post by gman25639 on May 8, 2013 5:35:07 GMT
yoritomo, that is just plain brilliant...
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Post by infornography on May 8, 2013 8:39:42 GMT
I vote Yoritomo for codex writer.
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Post by N.I.B. on May 8, 2013 8:50:21 GMT
Is it really a swarm army if it is outnumbered by 500 points of space marines? Is it really a small elitist army if your have 100 models on the table in turn 3? Get me right, I'd love to be able to field a proper horde (anyone's that has followed my 'competitive horde' thread knows that), but nerfing the Tervigon is not the way to go about it, imo. I think the Tervigon is about were it should be atm, but changes to Synapse will have a huge impact on the balance. About the psychic part - I wouldn't be surprised if the most alien race in the game got their codex powers reworked and buffed in the next codex but in exchange couldn't take any from the BRB. There's too many of them!Shoot the big ones!They're all around us! So the only buffs we get are ignored by ~50% of all tournament armies (Fearless) ? Sounds a bit weak. I do like your charge-through-diff-terrain solution.
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Post by infornography on May 8, 2013 9:27:31 GMT
Fearless doesn't mean you never have to take a leadership check, just the ones that explicitly state you ignore them if you are fearless, this doesn't have to be a fear response, it could just be indicative of the exhaustion and chaotic nature of being the the middle of a tyranid invasion and therefore not necessarily target the best target in all cases.
Also I don't think he meant to imply that he would change nothing else. Just that those were the big changes he had in mind.
Though I do dispute the idea that the terv is one of the strongest psykers in 6th ed. Anything masterly level 3 has just as many powers as a tervigon can get and they can cast them all. The Terv can only cast one. Granted it gets more benefit out of iron arm than most psykers, but it isn't that strong a psyker.
Also Tyranids do have a lot of fluff support for being phenomenally strong psykers, hell that is what the shadow in the warp is all about. They are such a huge and otherworldly psykic presence that they cause other races' psykers to lose their friggin minds!
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Post by glassiya on May 8, 2013 9:37:30 GMT
I also think that something needs to be done about assaulting into cover. it can be done MUCH easier. our Gaunts should be Beasts. Really. We're the most beastial codex, and we have only 1(one!) "beast" unit. That doesn't feel right.
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Post by yoritomo on May 8, 2013 16:59:59 GMT
And how does making us beasts help? Models that move assault through cover strike at I 1. It doesn't matter if the terrains slows us down or not. Sure, more beasts would be nice, but they don't solve any of our problems.
I also agree that a level 3 psyker is better than a tervigon. However, how many level 3 psykers are there? And how many armies can have several pseudo level 3 psykers running around? One could make the argument that the combination of MC, sort-of level 3 psyker, and troop choice is the only thing holding the tyranid army together at this point.
Look, I'm not going to argue about the tervigon here. I've made my prediction that it will get nerfed, I've explained why it will be nerfed, and given my opinion that I think it is justified. If you don't feel the same way that's fine. We'll see how it pans out in the end.
Though Info is right on two accounts. Fearless does not auto pass all leadership checks. With the rules as I wrote them fearless unit will still have to take the Ld test. Granted, GW enjoys making every unit Ld 10, so units won't fail the test too often. Still, it's better than nothing.
This also isn't meant to be an exhaustive list of everything that should be done to the tyranid codex. I think that every unit needs to be looked at when the codex is redone. Just packaging the same units into a codex with one or two new rules doesn't bring the army into 6th edition.
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Post by gman25639 on May 8, 2013 17:49:12 GMT
Warriors need some sort of lascannon equivalent allowing them to be a mobile anti-tank unit, like a tyranid devastator squad...
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Post by gauntlet on May 8, 2013 18:34:20 GMT
Things I really want to see. 1) make the T4 mid sized creatures viable, 2) have proper mixed swarms of creatures just like on the covers of the Codexs. 3) Genestealer Cults
achieve this by 1) using the FOC when purchasing models for the army list. 2) after purchase, you can mix up any of the models you have purchased to create mixed species units.
For fluff you can have exceptions, like i) you cannot mix Genestealers, but stealers can be mixed into 'brother in arms' ally units.) ii) Trygons, Ravenors, Mawlocs, Ravenors, Rippers, can only mix with like burrowing creatures. iii) Only winged creatures can mix together. iv) Lictors are lone preditors, you must split them up into lone independent characters.
3) Synapse only affects units containing a Synapse creature, and only units with Synapse are scoring. ( Fluff: stealers cannot conceive of anything but implantation as an objective, so Stealers are not automatically scoring).
This would radically reinvent the style of the army and in a way which is more like the fluff, and set it apart from other Codex. This allows you to embed Warriors, Zoanthropes, Pyrovores, Venomthropes, thus solving both the lack of assault grenades and instant death problems. Enhances the cinematic effect of gaunts being just canon fodder, and makes each unit play like a coordinated organism, with appendages and a brain.
If you want to get really radical (but I think it is a step too far), then abolish static unit structure, so any models which are within 2 inches of each other are part of the same unit. Merge or split apart units during game play. Maybe instinctive behaviour is to automatically fall back to nearest Synapse creature.
Obviously play around and tweek these ideas for balance.
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Post by ranmafan on May 8, 2013 19:58:00 GMT
Yoritomo has the right of it - that's pretty fluffy and tactically viable.
I *would* love to have our assault specialists have access to flesh hooks or some mitigated initiative penalty at least.
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Post by gman25639 on May 9, 2013 2:54:43 GMT
Give tyranid warriors eternal warrior.
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Post by Nightmare20 on May 9, 2013 6:47:01 GMT
Venomthropes, zoanthropes, and warriors need to be attachable to squads like an IC but cant leave the squad after attachment and just characters so only a 4+ LoS. Also, tervigon should attach spawns to an existing squad or their own squad. Maybe at a reduced number of dice or every other turn? Also the option for hormagants for 10-15 points.
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