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Post by Obsidorox on May 22, 2013 17:12:41 GMT
In general, I think there need to be more flavorful, fun, valuable rules in our codex. As of now it feels very 1 dimensional. High rate of fire short ranged weapons and handing out poison melee weapons like candy. Throw in some fleet... That's about it.
The carnifex is a good example - its special rules are all kind of lackluster and its overshadowed by other options. It's a linebreaker according to the fluff so give it rules to allow that. I like the idea of giving it 2+ armor. I think T7 may be a bit much but it could have feel no pain built in instead. That way str 3 and 4 weapons can hurt it, they just are not very likely.
There also needs to be a reason to give MCs melee upgrades instead of sticking 2x devourers on everything that can hold them. The carnifex is supposed to have an unstoppable charge once it builds momentum. Let's give it d3 HoW hits to partially represent this. Also for every turn the carnifex runs instead of shoots give it a counter. When it assaults, cash in these counters to add 2 inches to the rolled assault range per counter up to a cap... Probably don't want the carnifex making a 20" charge move regardless of how funny it would be.
I'm not entirely sure how tank shock works (it doesnt seem to come upbvery often) but I think it would also be fluffy if a carnifex could charge through a unit to get into combat with something behind them. It could be a very anti bubble wrap MC.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus
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Post by bronyzro on May 22, 2013 18:09:42 GMT
I'm intrigued by the idea of running to build up momentum. Definetely should be a cap though, like you said. Lol, looking over Carnifex rules and just realised that in 6th ed, a carnifex with frag pines can throw a frag grenade. Completely useless, but it makes me laugh for some reason.
On another note, will this thread continue until the new dex comes out? Because it doesn't seem to be showing any sign of slowing down...
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Post by Doughhunter on May 22, 2013 19:03:37 GMT
Round the codex 4th ed flesh hooks for a point/model. Venom cannons become autocannons with 24' range and AP - Heavy venoms get 36' and s9 and 3 shots (fexes and tyrants can double up) Flying Monster that can assault flyers Options on monsters to get armoured carapace General reduction of points to monsters My main wishes EDIT: ooooh, and maybe this: Adaptable - at the start if each friendly turn, while the warlord is still alive and on the board, you may choose to roll for a different warlord trait from any trait table. This is your new trait umtil you decide to re-roll it a further time should you wish in a later turn.
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Post by Charistoph on May 22, 2013 19:07:47 GMT
There also needs to be a reason to give MCs melee upgrades instead of sticking 2x devourers on everything that can hold them. The carnifex is supposed to have an unstoppable charge once it builds momentum. Let's give it d3 HoW hits to partially represent this. Also for every turn the carnifex runs instead of shoots give it a counter. When it assaults, cash in these counters to add 2 inches to the rolled assault range per counter up to a cap... Probably don't want the carnifex making a 20" charge move regardless of how funny it would be. Or, it has HoW normally (or through an upgrade, Ramming Horn?), but can Assault even when it Runs (5th Edition Fleet), and if it does the HoW is D3+1. I'm not entirely sure how tank shock works (it doesnt seem to come upbvery often) but I think it would also be fluffy if a carnifex could charge through a unit to get into combat with something behind them. It could be a very anti bubble wrap MC. This could be an alternative to the above in that when it Runs, it operates just like a Tank Shock. The unit can either move or Death or Glory. Maybe allow for a 2D6 Run if it chooses to do this? Then allow for a Ram where it's Str is the Base of the Ram attack instead of Armor... Still, if I had to choose between that and being a Monstrous Beast, it would be a hard call.
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Post by halos on May 24, 2013 12:25:26 GMT
I've been thinking about Lictors, they're a very cool unit, with a great model. But the rules have never really been that great. I'm trying to think of ways they can be useful to an army, and justify taking up that ever valuable Elites slot, without just being 'better Ymgarls.' I'm thinking something like:
-Lictor Brood (1-3 models, ~65pts per) -Statline, mostly the same, give them a 4+ save so they can actually survive a little longer in combat, keep the T4 to represent their assassin nature. -Special Rules: 'Independant Hunter', 'I think we're being watched...', 'Ambush Predator', 'Chameleonic Hide', 'Fleet', 'Stealth', 'Move through Cover', 'Hit and Run' -Wargear: Rending Claws, Scything Talons, Flesh Hooks, 4+ save, Feeder Tendrils -Independant Hunter: A Lictor often operates far outside of the reach of the Hive Mind's guiding influence, Lictors never test for Instinctive Behaviour and instead operate under the normal rules for Morale outside of Synapse range. -Chameleonic Hide: A lictors exoskeleton is rife with morphic bioforms capable of rapidly changing colour and shape to better hide the Lictor from sight. A Lictor must start the game in reserve. Upon entering from Reserves the Lictor arrives as per normal Deepstrike rules. If it attempts to Deepstrike into terrain it will scatter only 1D6 instead of the usual two. If a Lictor Deepstrikes into an enemy unit it does not suffer a mishap, instead it scuttles back into Ongoing Reserves as it's cover is blown. Such is a Lictors camoflage that it can effectively choose the best moment to reveal itself, Lictors may re-roll their own Reserve dice, whether it is a success of failure. In addition a Lictors Chameleonic skin grants an additional +1 to it's cover saves so long as it is in terrain. -I think we're being watched...: Lictors are well known for stalking their prey across many miles, often causing more damage through fear and paranoia than physical attacks. For each Lictor Brood in the Tyranid army the Tyranid player may mark an enemy non-vehicle unit with a 'Lictor Counter.' If a Brood contains more than one Lictor place an additional counter for each extra Lictor. Whilst a unit is afflicted with a Lictor Counter it is distracted by the possible presence of hidden Lictors and suffers a -1 penalty to it's BS, WS and I. These effects are cumulative for multiple Lictors Counters. These effects of Lictor Counters are only applicable whilst the Lictor Brood is in reserve, once the Lictors have revealed themselves the suffering unit reverts to it's normal stats. If a Lictor charges a unit with Lictor Counters it may use a counter to prevent a single enemy model from both firing Overwatch and attacking in the ensuing combat. Counters used in this way are removed from the game and will have no further effect. -Ambush Predator: Each time a unit with at least one Lictor Counter attempts to move through Difficult or Dangerous Terrain it suffers a single S4 AP- hit with the Rending rule for each Lictor Counter attached to the unit. These wounds should be allocated by the units owner.
-Flesh Hooks: Flesh Hooks are barbed chitinous claws attached to fleshy tendrils which can be launched at surprising range via a thoracic spasm, they are generally used to snare unsuspecting prey and drag it close to the wielder. Flesh Hooks can be fired in the shooting phase like any other ranged weapon using the following profile: Range 12" S 3 AP4 Assault 6, Rending In addition each succesful hit on an enemy infantry unit will pull said unit 1" closer to the firer. Tyranid models armed with Flesh Hooks never suffer the Initative penalty for charging through Difficult Terrain. -Feeder Tendrils: These sensitive appendages can be used to rapidly and efficiently dissect a target creature, granting the user vital knowledge regarding the victims physiology and anatomy. Feeder Tendrils make Lictors formidable assassins, capable of learning their targets weaknesses in a short space of time. Each time a model from a Lictor Brood slays an enemy model with a Rending hit the brood may choose one of the following special rules, which they will keep until slain. -Poison (4+) -Fear -Furious Charge -Monster Hunter
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Post by omnivore on May 24, 2013 17:07:05 GMT
I'd like them to change bounding leap into a 3d6 charge distance, with re-rolls for fleet. Maybe give the option to Warriros again.
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Post by nairno on May 24, 2013 18:54:42 GMT
I think a HQ unit of warriors would be nice, like there was in the old codex. Only make them have better options than the troops versions. This would leave the troops ones to fit the role of expanding the synapse web, as well as capturing objectives. Maybe give the HQ unit the option of upgrading one to a prime as well.
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Post by biomassbob on May 24, 2013 22:04:52 GMT
With tyranid primes now as a HQ choice, I don't think warriors need to be a HQ choice again. I would just like to see warriors have a variety of decent options, the insta-kill from str8 dealt with (either T5 2W or cheaper with cheaper upgrades) and a difference between shooty warriors and CC warriors (things like someone mentioned above having options to move faster (and hormagaunts should also be faster - with both these units synergized to work together so warriors can keep up to provide synapse).
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Post by Squire on May 24, 2013 22:28:41 GMT
I think a HQ unit of warriors would be nice, like there was in the old codex. Only make them have better options than the troops versions. This would leave the troops ones to fit the role of expanding the synapse web, as well as capturing objectives. Maybe give the HQ unit the option of upgrading one to a prime as well. I like that. No one figure leading the swarm sounds quite fluffy to me. Perhaps the unit can be unique by allowing a mix of weapons
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Post by spartan6669 on May 25, 2013 6:45:16 GMT
Wow,
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Post by spartan6669 on May 25, 2013 6:58:43 GMT
So i just read through that WHOLE thread
My hive mind is hurting lol but some great ideas HOWEVER.
Has anyone read the 2nd codex?
Back then the 'nid really played like the fluff. The main difference i believe was the movement rule. Which addmittely is partly the rulebook but still. Everyone had a movement stat. Most were 4 inches. Almost all 'nids were 6 inches. Runs & charges were double. A failed charge just meant you were at point blank for the next turn of shooting. It has its own inbuilt penalty.
By having 6" movement the 'nids played a lot like Yohomito ( i hope i got that right ) suggested rules for. Horma's got an extra leap move too and gargoyles could 'fly high' disappearing for a turn then coming down where they wanted. This meant it was very hard for the enemy to ignore ANY of your models in a balanced nid army. Ignored hormagaunts would be across the board slaughtering something or lots of things by turn 2. Ignored termi's would be in shooting range very quickly and ignored MC's ( from memory NONE of them had flying ) would be across the board a lot quicker.
My opponents tended to behave similar to the enforced rules because they had to. No point in shooting the hive tyrant if the carni was in charge range next turn. No point in shooting the carni if 12 hormagaunts were going to leap into CC and eat you. Maybe your HW could shoot the carni but even then some opponents opted to use the frag plates on the little ones.
Of course our range sucked back then. If i failed to use the right tactics or lacked cover i would get destroyed. I think that was fair though. I don't really want Tyranids to have guns like the other races. Bio weapons arent the same as guns. They are developed by they hive mind to assist the swarms in what they do best. Get in your face and EAT IT!!
Oh and you should see the lictor in 2nd. His rules are really a LICTOR. Although again you could charge first turn in second which is a rule not the codex. I'll try to post some of the stuff later. See what you all think.
In my opinion the stats and abilities of the army should match the fluff. You then adjust the points to make the game equal. If you give everyone the same abilities but different models its kinda boring. They should all be different.
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Post by Squire on May 25, 2013 10:29:45 GMT
No I believe our only MC's then were the footrant and carnifex. I collected a small nid army back in 3rd edition prior to getting a codex, so I remember the second edition units because of that even though 2nd was before my time. It's quite sad that so many classic nid units from back then are below par now
Hive tyrant (footrant), lictors, zoanthropes, warriors, genestealers, termagants, hormagaunts, rippers, gargoyles, carnifex, biovores.
Of those units I suppose a hive tyrant on foot can be okay if it's upgrades are right, zoanthropes are still good, termies are so-so, gargoyles are decent and biovores are good. Otherwise a big (please do not swear) has been taken on classic stuff like lictors, warriors, stealers, hormies and the carnifex
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Post by azamonra on May 25, 2013 23:27:03 GMT
I've actually been thinking about this for a while since I felt a lot of stuff was off about 5th addition. General stuff. - I'd like to see more of a focus on speed and close quarters combat with lots of swarming troops since that's what the Nids are suppose to be all about.
- More varied choices for troops to give the sense of fielding a swarm of specially bred monsters. I'd like to see something like what the new Tue Codex did with the Kroot. I think being able to buy different kinds of troops for individual units would work really well for the Tyranids.
- Mutability. I don't need to be able to choose from an entire specialised upgrade list for every brood but a greater sense of being able to tailor your Hive Fleet would be nice.
Zoanthropes. - First of all increase their BS. As it stands they do one thing and they do it very poorly. According to the fluff they are basically Omega+ Pykers but they couldn't lift a feather on the moon so tweeking their stats so they have WS0 A0 I0 ect and making them at least BS5 would be nice.
- Make them HQ and Independent Characters. I think it makes more sense and it means they can be given psychic powers that match their fluff (to a degree) without them being OP.
- Give them a list of special "pychic" powers like Warp Lance that work more like standard weapons or buffs in addition to regular psychic powers
- Make the model less top heavy or give them clear plastic props or remodel the model with "lightning" or something arching to the ground from their brains. (something to make it easier to build the damn thngs, anything)
Carniflex - I'd like to see the Carniflex retooled to be exclusively close combat with optional biomorphs that function as pistols to increase its attacks and give it short range shooting.
- I'll like to see options to make them Tank Hunters, with specialist biomorphs like organic grenades and such.
- I would like them to retain the Screamer Killer thing, that's fun regardless of how functional it is.
Gaunts - I'd like to see more diversity in the gaunts. Not exactly biomorphs but actual base gaunts. We have two, three if you count Gargoyles, but I'd like to see more bases. Perhaps a slightly larger more muscular gaunt that can carry a heavy weapon biomorph (I'm not good with nuts'n'bolts points but maybe double a standard Termagaunt?). Something like that.
- A pack leader-like unite upgrade. Basically one gaunt that is slightly smarter and more connected to the Hive Mind but not a synaps creature. Basically a gaunt with an extra attack and a higher Ld that the whole unite can use for instinctual behaviour tests and can answer and use challenges and all that.
Lictors - I'd like to see Lictors be able to operate outside of synapse range again.
- While I like the Hive Guard model and idea I think its weapon would work better as an upgrade fro the Lictor, perhaps replacing it's scything talons. (This might be OP now that I think about it but not sure)
- Lictors should play to the new fear rule.
Biovorse - Sigh, honestly I like the look of Biovorse but they fire spore mines and that's it. And all spore mines work the same now so that's even more of a strike against them. They need to be able to fire other stuff, like missals or something.
- Bring back different spore mine types.
Rippers - I think Rippers should be made unite upgrades.
- Less options. Of all the Nids, Rippers should be basic and standard.
- Make them ammunition. A bit silly but it makes sense.
Tyrant Guard - They should be geared more to being meat shields, Feel No Pain, Regeneration (possibly as an upgrade), T10 Sv+2, Blind, Slow and Purposeful ect
- I'd give them Lash Whips as standard and remove the Rending Claws so they are more geared toward interference than combat, maybe give them de-buff biomorph options as well.
- Bring back the Spine Shield so it grants an Invulnerable Save +4.
New stuff I'd like to see. - Genestrealer cultists. I'd really like to see GC as a troop choice, maybe with a um what do you call those guys that lead Genestrealer cults? Well one of those guys as a unit upgrade.
- Deamonids. Ok this is going into silly, not going to happen, ideas but given that Nids are the only 40k race that can't take allies it kinda works...in my head at least. Basically deamons created by the Hive Mind, which work like regular Deamons but they are Tyranid-y, a Zoenphrope could make a unite as a bodyguard choice perhaps.
- Dominatrix! Again, mad idea that won't happen but I seriously love the idea of these things and not just cause of their name.
- Some sort of tank creatures. Basically MC that function as armoured troop carriers with hollow parts for gaunts to embark and disembark from .
That's all I can think of. Sorry if I'm re-treading old ground, I haven't read the entire thread.
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Post by spartan6669 on May 26, 2013 12:13:19 GMT
Ok so i've busted out my old 2nd edition codex.
Some stuff is really cool like the acid blood upgrade. It was only 5 points and the hits it caused were the same strength as the models toughness with armour save modifiers equal to every point of toughness above 3! Thats freeking kool.
Carnifex's stats were :
Move : 6 WS : 6 BS : 4 S : 7 T : 8 W : 10 I : 6
So they would do S8 hit with -5 armour save modifier. The mechanics were a bit different back then but that would cut through anythink except Termi armour. Just like Aliens lol
Almost all our model got 6" moves & hormi's got an additional 6" leap which could also be vertical. 18" per turn!!! RUN pathetic prey RUN!! MUHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
Lol. Of course we were mostly on foot so if we didnt close quick and use cover we got shot to... uh do not swear?
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Post by warfrogger on May 26, 2013 22:11:00 GMT
Seeing as Everyone else is writing up lists I will do the same.
HQ Hive Tyrant Pretty decent as is, maybe a point cost reduction to his base points.
Swarmlord Removed as a special character. Make him an 0-1 upgrade to the Tyrant in similar manner to to necrons pharaon upgrade but increases its mastery lvl, its stats a bit and gives it psychic monstrosity. Also gives access to more specialist weapon options like crushing claws or 4x bone sabers.
Tyrant Guard Sworen protector from the tau codex (LOS! rolls passed automaticly) and potentially a weapon skill increase or special rule to make majority WS count as the tyrants when figuing out rolls to hit them.
Tervigon I don't even know with him. currently he is our best model buti have never liked the concept of him. Maybe drop his ability to be troop and that will balance him out a bit.
Tyranid Prime Go back to 4th where they were a 3-9 unit. Allow them to be equipped differently and if the number 5 or fewer allow them to split off Royal Court style.
Hive Guard Good as is. Maybe add an upgrade for skyfire for more points
Lictor Too much needs to be changed to type it out here
Zoanthrope Too much up in the air with Psy power tables and such. I would like to have mastry level 2 as an upgrade.
Pyrovore Go home Pyrovore your drunk. But seriously he needs to decide what he wants too do.
Warriors Allow them to be equipped differently. Rather then having Shrikes and regular ect have just one entry in troops section but with limitation such as *warrior broods with a least 1 model with wings become fast attack choices. *warrior broods with at least 1 model with bonded exoskeleton become elite choices *warriors broods with 2 or more of the following weapons (BS VC) become heavy support.
Genestealers 2 of the following abiltiy to assualt after outflank Increase armor save to 4+ (an upgrade for this is okay) Overwatch specific Cover or Inv Save
Mycetic Spore T5 or 6 so its not ID for quick VP
Termigaunts & Hormagaunts Rather then have both separate i would like just plain gaunt chassis with at 3 or 4 points then add in the bio morphs you want. Make all gaunt chassis beasts.
Ravener Keep them the same. Drop the vanilla point cost
Gargoyle Give them them more options. Make Roc's (or other mythical name here) for a Sythying talon variant. Allow them to Bird strike flyers.
Harpy Keep it mostly the same. Give it 2 STC or VC not TL. Most arimes are getting 2 flyer combo kits so i forsee this being the case as the harpy so keep it the Ground fire support option. make the other variant AA focused by either allowing it to assualt Flyers with powerful CC weapons or large amount of strentgh 7/8 shots
Carnifex Make it a linebreaker. Have it be the first Beast Monstrous Creature. Give it D3 HoW attacks (D6 with an upgrade) back to the 4th edition style of starting around 85 points naked and add in what you want for weapons ext. below certian costs let them move in FoC. Also brood equiped differently. 2+ save one of the options.
Biovores Return mine types. Large blast s4 ap4 as one. Maybe a flak mine that has skyfire. Maybe anit mech mine that has amour bane or other anit tank rule
Tyrgon Fine as is
Mawloc either needs to be able to use its emerging blast more often or needs to get a new trick. Not sure what to do here.
Tyranofex Point cost reduction. Fleshborer hive range increase. It seems to be intended as a gun beast. Drop it weapon skill Allow it to shoot 3 weapons a turn instead of 2 remove the thorax weapons giving it primarly long ranged direct fire. Maybe allow it to split fire with the extra weapon it shoots.
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