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Post by gigasnail on May 14, 2013 7:24:34 GMT
why break something that's not broken?
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Post by chuckles on May 14, 2013 9:12:25 GMT
A standard suggestion seems to be "give unit x flesh hooks", I'd suggest something different. The skull cannon from the Daemon codex allows friendly units charging through cover at enemy units hit (or wounded, can't remember which) by the cannon to strike at normal initiative. Why not have weapons in the tyranid codex have similar stuff? I could see a similar rule with barbed stranglers and stranglethorn cannons, while spinefists/cluster spines/stinger salvos could count as offensive grenades in addition to their normal profile. A shame to rulesteal so shamelessly, but I have to agree that swapping pinning for this would improve barbed stranglers and stranglethorn cannons to no end. I'd also really like to see Living Ammunition make a comeback in some form or another. I like Tyranids, and I don't think I'm alone in this, because they are so other and alien, and I like the idea of rules to differentiate our weaponry from that of other races beyond "never an AP lower than 4"
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Post by infornography on May 14, 2013 9:22:36 GMT
I do think that would help and would make for some interesting synergy. It would definitely increase popularity of STC and BS builds. Might even give the harpy an important role in our army being a fast response and reliable STC wielder.
I like this idea. I would probably make it on hit, but on wound would probably be acceptable. On unsaved wound I think would be too weak to be relied upon. Besides it is acting as a replacement for frag grenades which don't cause any wounds when giving you this benefit.
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Post by chuckles on May 14, 2013 9:36:28 GMT
Indeed. A good way to get our rather under-represented ranged weapons desirable again.
While we're on the topic of Tyranid ranged weapons, Venom cannons need to be desirable again. Back in the day we took them because they were respectable ranged weapons, but they've never been awesome. GW seems to think that just because they've intentionally denied us decent ranged anti-tank for a long time, when they give us a still-subpar-but-slightly-less-subpar-than-the-alternatives ranged anti-tank weapon we should fall over and worship them. Since the introduction of brainleech devourers, the impaler cannon and even warp lance (find me a better way to kill a land raider, even with the caveats), venom cannons have been pointless anti-tank, and they've never ever been decent anti infantry.
What could potentially be really interesting is the idea of the venom/acid/whatever fired by a venom cannon having the capacity to injure the occupants. So perhaps they could be changed to assault 3, and given the rule that every penetrating or glancing hit they cause on a transport inflicts D3 wounds on any models embarked in the transport, assigned either randomly or by the owning player, and using the venom cannon's strength and AP. So the question is- have I gone totally mental?
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Post by yoritomo on May 14, 2013 11:11:11 GMT
A standard suggestion seems to be "give unit x flesh hooks", I'd suggest something different. The skull cannon from the Daemon codex allows friendly units charging through cover at enemy units hit (or wounded, can't remember which) by the cannon to strike at normal initiative. Why not have weapons in the tyranid codex have similar stuff? I could see a similar rule with barbed stranglers and stranglethorn cannons, while spinefists/cluster spines/stinger salvos could count as offensive grenades in addition to their normal profile. We already have this weapon, it's called a barbed strangler. Units that are pinned do not get the benefits of cover when they are assaulted. So all you have to do is cause a wound with the barbed strangler and have the unit fail their pinning check. Presto, no more need for assault grenades. The only problem with the barbed strangler solution that GW gave us for assault is that 90% of things in the game are fearless. And the other 10% are naturally Ld 10 or have a way to get Ld 10.
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Post by chuckles on May 14, 2013 11:28:45 GMT
A standard suggestion seems to be "give unit x flesh hooks", I'd suggest something different. The skull cannon from the Daemon codex allows friendly units charging through cover at enemy units hit (or wounded, can't remember which) by the cannon to strike at normal initiative. Why not have weapons in the tyranid codex have similar stuff? I could see a similar rule with barbed stranglers and stranglethorn cannons, while spinefists/cluster spines/stinger salvos could count as offensive grenades in addition to their normal profile. We already have this weapon, it's called a barbed strangler. Units that are pinned do not get the benefits of cover when they are assaulted. So all you have to do is cause a wound with the barbed strangler and have the unit fail their pinning check. Presto, no more need for assault grenades. The only problem with the barbed strangler solution that GW gave us for assault is that 90% of things in the game are fearless. And the other 10% are naturally Ld 10 or have a way to get Ld 10. ...So what you're saying is that we have this ability already, except it mostly doesn't work. So howsabout we make it so that it does work?
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Post by grarik on May 14, 2013 12:32:29 GMT
We already have this weapon, it's called a barbed strangler. Units that are pinned do not get the benefits of cover when they are assaulted. So all you have to do is cause a wound with the barbed strangler and have the unit fail their pinning check. Presto, no more need for assault grenades. The only problem with the barbed strangler solution that GW gave us for assault is that 90% of things in the game are fearless. And the other 10% are naturally Ld 10 or have a way to get Ld 10. Yes, barbed stranglers/stranglethorn cannons pin, but as you commented, pinning is so unreliable these days it's more of a gimmick than a beneficial rule. That's why I like what they did with the skull cannon, it's essentially given daemons a way to avoid initiative penalties for charging through cover without throwing grenades at everything, and added an extra dimension to gameplay for the daemon player. Something similar would work for us just as well, I would think. Another thought is to bring back the old catalyst, either as a psychic power, or attach it to synapse.
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Post by harry4tw on May 14, 2013 14:29:09 GMT
I would like to see our gribblies acting as anti-vehicle units.
I think it would be hillarious if rippers could try to clog themselves in the engines and gears of tanks to immobilize them.
Take a unit of rippers: When they charge a vehicle, roll d6. For every roll of 6 a vehicle is immobilized. All rippers charging are destroyed.
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Post by gauntlet on May 14, 2013 21:03:30 GMT
I would like to see our gribblies acting as anti-vehicle units. I think it would be hillarious if rippers could try to clog themselves in the engines and gears of tanks to immobilize them. Take a unit of rippers: When they charge a vehicle, roll d6. For every roll of 6 a vehicle is immobilized. All rippers charging are destroyed. Living Ammunition. - any wound which is saved by armour or fails to penetrate then spawns a ripper base engaged with the target unit. Can be fired in the shooting phase and prevents overwatch or defense grenades in assault phase. Add living ammo rule to brain leach worms. If this is over powered then perhaps only unsaved wounds spawn a ripper base. Or spawn at 1" thus allowing a dual assault denying overwatch/granades/terrain but not allowing the long range of BStrangler to automatically pin heavy support infantry. When within Synapse then Skyslasher and Gargoyles can be commanded to sacrifice all unit members to cause bird strikes when overflown by jet bikes, flying vehicle or tank shocking vehicles. Can only cause weapon disabled results. Strikes at S6 like brain leach.
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Post by Squire on May 14, 2013 23:14:54 GMT
I guess a common sense rule would be to allow spinefists and spike rifles as free weapon options for termagants then allow tervigons to spawn whatever kind of termagants they like (apart from devil gaunts). I'd like to see the spike rifle fixed but it's quite hard to figure out what to do with it. Removing the extra points cost for it at the same time as increasing the range to 24 seems like it would become a bit overpowered, but I really want to see the tervigon be able to spawn all three types of termagant
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Post by guidebot on May 15, 2013 10:15:23 GMT
Sure, I'll chip in with a few.
-Make tervigon troops limited to one. I can see this unit as troops, but it gets a bit silly with three.
-Have a more expensive version of the tervigon that spawns hormagaunts; the Horvigon. For people who like zerglings. Unfortunately this would probably need a new model, a spikier more aggressive looking tervigon.
-A general tune up for all the units and weapons that are really cool but have lame rules at the moment. Lictors are the main candidate; I don't care if they're even 80pts each, I just want to use them as ultimate stealth assassin horrors, like they should be. Harpies need something because they seem limp at the moment; I'd say some synergy with gargoyles, S/T6 and give it a flamer weapon for fly-by vomit (adjust pts price accordingly). Genestealers also need some help at the moment. Warriors need some help against instant death because they're just so easy to gib with battlecannons/ powerfists. Termagants would like usable spike rifles/ webguns. And, as has been said, heavy venom cannons are quite pants right now, and ought to be a signature weapon.
Apart from that, leave the decent half of our codex as is.
Realistically, I can see some kind of tyranid allies compensation coming in, because I think P.Kelly mentioned it a while back. Genestealer infestation, anyone...?
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Post by halos on May 15, 2013 20:31:20 GMT
I can probably think of a few ways to make the next book a bit more interesting/varied:
-The return of Living Ammo could be done in a few ways, I think the simplest would be to make weapons with Living Ammo count as being Poisoned (4+). -They came from the skies! a special upgrade which can be bought for any winged unit (Gargs, Sky-slashers, Shrikes, Harpies and Flyrants) which allows the unit to assault enemy fliers as per normal assault rules with the added caveat that any attacks which miss the flier will cause an automatic wound against the attacker. It's an upgrade a similar vein to various Tau units being able to buy Skyfire but in a more Tyrannic way. -SitW should become a -1Ld for all enemy psychic tests cast within 12" of a Synapse creatures, cumulative for multiple of such. Stops the massive irritation of a single DSing synapse creature screwing over all enemy psykers but will become more powerful as the game goes on and more synapse nodes get in range. -Obviously, as per all the other 6th ed books, the Nids need their own Psychic table and Warlord traits. I suggest: --Warlord Traits-- 1-Swarm Vanguard: Infiltrators gain stealth for the first game turn. 2-Leader-beast: Warlords Synapse/Psychic power range increased by 6" 3-Ancient Horror: The Warlord causes Fear and Fear checks taken against it are at a -2 penalty. 4- Tyrannoform: Dangerous terrain tests taken by non-tyranid units are failed on the roll of a 2 or less. 5-Aerial Assault: Deepstriking units do not scatter and recieve a 4+ cover save against any Interceptor shots fired against them. 6-World Devourer: All Tyranid units gain FnP (6+)
--Psychic Table (Tyranid HQs must roll on this table to generate their psychic powers)-- Primaris- Catalyst: Blessing, 18", target recieves FnP (4+) 1-2- Paroxysm: Malediction, 24", target must take a Ld check on 3D6, if failed their BS and WS are reduced by 1. 3-4- Onslaught: Blessing, 12", target may move an additional D6" and will attack even if slain before it's Initiative step. 5-6- Dominon: Blessing, all Tyranids within 6" may fire their weaponry twice in the shooting phase, or attack twice in the assault phase.
And then we look at fixing the less used units:
-Swarmlord needs either a 2+ save, 4++ save or a points reduction.
-Venom Cannon: 36" Assault 3, S6, AP3, Poisoned (2+) -Heavy Venom Cannon: 36" Assault 3, S9, AP3, Blast, Poisoned (2+)
-Lictors: --Feeder Tendrils: If a Lictor slays an enemy character nominate one Tyranid unit within 24". That unit now has Preferred Enemy. --Pheromone Trail: Tyranid units within 6" of a Lictor gain Furious Charge. --Bio-Assassins: If a Lictor enters combat with a unit containing a Character the Lictor and Character will automatically enter a special Challenge, the Character cannot refuse although may leave the challenge via a Heroic Intervention. --Ambush: When a Lictor arrives from reserves select an enemy unit within 12". That unit must pass an Initative test, if failed the Lictor may attempt to charge as normal.
-Venomthropes: --Spore Cloud: Tyranid units within 12" of a Venomthrope gain the Stealth special rule. Tyranid units within 12" of three or more Venomthropes gain the Shrouded special rule. --Tyrannic Phage Cells: Each time an enemy unit attempts to move within 6" of a Venomthrope for any reason it must make a Blind test.
-Pyrovores: --Acidic Spray: Models wounded by the Pyrovore have their armour save value increased by one. In addition if the Pyrovore hits a vehicle then the affected facing is reduced by one.
-Warriors: --Gain Brotherhood of Psykers, may roll once on the Tyranid Psychic powers table. --Tyrannic Toughness: Are treated as being one Toughness higher than their profile indicates for the purposes of Instant-death.
-Genestealers: --Points reduction, a 4+ save or allow them to assault upon outflanking. --Broodlord gains AP3 melee attacks.
-Mycetic Spore: --T6
-Hormagaunts: --Beast movement.
-Raveners: --Access to toxin sacs/adrenal glands. --Allowed useage of Trygon tunnel.
-Harpy: --Can take a twin-linked Impaler cannon. --Sky-Dancer: Evading grants a 2+ Jink save. --Spore Flares: Instead of releasing it's Spore Mine cyst as a Bomb the Harpy can release them mid-flight. Draw a straight line between the Harpies initial position and it's final point (including any Run movement.) Any Zooming enemy flier which attempts to cross this line automatically suffers D3 glancing hits (jink saves may be taken as normal.)
-Spore Mine Cluster: --Can purchase Aerial Deployment: are deep-struck as normal but count as Flying Infantry and may move over any intervening models and terrain. Will automatically move 2D6" towards the nearest enemy flier each turn, otherwise random movement. If an aerial Spore Mine makes contact with an enemy flier it suffers one glancing hit (jink saves may be taken as normal.) --Living Bomb: Spore Mines are biologically programmed to seek out non-tyrannic life and then detonate. Each mine will move d6" towards the closest enemy non-vehicle unit each turn. If a Spore Mine touches an enemy model it will detonate.
-Carnifex Brood: --I4, points reduction. --Living Battering Ram: Each Carnifex causes D6 Hammer of Wrath hits. Additionally Carnifex never suffer an initiative penalty for charging through puny terrain! --Alien Strength: A Carnifex may opt to make a special Smash attack with the following variations: it's attacks are not halved, rather the Carnifex may make only a single attack. It's strength is not doubled, rather the Carnifex attack will automatically wound and causes Instant Death!
-Old One Eye: --2+ save, It Will Not Die, Regen one lost wound automatically each turn. --All of Old One Eyes attacks cause Instant Death
-Trygon: --Tremor-sense: A Trygon may elect to arrive from reserves automatically on turns 1 or 2. If it chooses to do so the Tyranid player must make a secret note of which turn it is going to arrive. --Subterranean Assault: Place a tunnel marker at the Trygons position after it has arrived via Deepstrike. Any non-winged Tyranid unit entering play from reserve may use this tunnel instead of arriving via Deepstrike or from the Tyranid players board edge.
-Mawloc: --WS4, A4, One pair of Crushing Claws --Terror from the Deep: Multiple Barrage D3, S8, AP2.
-Tyrannofex: --Points reduction --Fleshborer Hive: 24" Assault 20, S6, AP4, Twin-Linked, Poisoned (4+) --Acid Spray: Template, S6, AP3, Torrent --Rupture Cannon: 48" Assault 4, S10, AP4 --Defensive Pheromones: If the Tyrannofex is in combat all Tyranid units attempting to enter the same combat gain Furious Charge and Preferred Enemy. The Tyrannofex itself gains It Will Not Die.
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Post by guidebot on May 16, 2013 0:01:57 GMT
Ooh, this just came to me.
Biovores. Give them an AA role (think like those things from Gears of war that are always shooting down the helicopters and look like spore mines).
An alternate fire mode which spawns a shrieker mine within 6" of the biovore (like tervigon). The shrieker mine effectively flies (only snapshots against them, no assaults or templates, jink save, so on). It can move under player control, and run in the shooting phase. If it makes contact with an enemy flier or swooping FMC, that unit takes a hefty hit (S9, auto shaken, say) and the mine is removed. This means that the enemy can try to shoot them down.
Seems like a fairly niddy anti air to me.
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Post by biomassbob on May 16, 2013 2:14:23 GMT
Lots of interesting ideas. I hope the next nid dex has good internal balance and tighter/more sensible rules writing. Until then I have decided to shelve my nids and stop playing 6th edition. If the next nid dex seems decent I may buy it. I could tolerate the nonsense/poor game design, IMO, of 6th edition if the nid dex was well designed (not op - just with practically all units and biomorphs being effective choices that don't seem to be fighting against a badly written dex or the BRB rules).
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Post by Squire on May 16, 2013 10:11:34 GMT
The good thing is with so many great ideas in this thread some are bound to happen. It would quite incredible if literally none of them were used
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