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Post by Nightmare20 on Mar 6, 2013 6:51:47 GMT
the main reason we rely on tervigon is threefold. They are point for point better than a carnifex, act as the closest thing we have to a dedicated transport, and finally the overall efficiency of our troop choices went down the toilet with T4 warriors, outflanking becoming useless for genestealers, hormagants losing out in an edition of shooting, and termagants being worse than a basic imperial guardsman for the same cost. Why else do we rely on our elites so much to win games?
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Post by biomassbob on Mar 6, 2013 17:54:10 GMT
I am not disputing that the tervigon is one of the best units we have. I understand your points, all valid IMO, and why others use them. I also don't begrudge anyone using them. I just refuse to use them myself for other reasons.
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Post by doberman on Mar 7, 2013 20:10:25 GMT
While I am a big fan of the Tervigon, and think it is now a vital part to the Nid army.
If you don't like it, don't use it.
The game has changed in the 6th. Much better for the Nids, if you ask me psychic powers have improved us no end.
You can't ignore the randomness but you can plan ahead, if you are using the same strategies you used in 5th when playing 6th, winning will be harder. I hope you find a way to enjoy the game again.
Have you actually tried using a Trevigon with crushing claws and additional psychic powers? It's great I promise you, you might actually like it. I am amazed that people are still refusing to use a Tervigon.
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Post by commandersasha on Mar 7, 2013 21:35:34 GMT
I run a mixed list: Dakkaflyrant Prime with 3 Hiveguard and 3 Biovores (normally as a mobile firebase) Crushigon Devilgaunt spore DoomSpore 10 Ymgarls 15 Ubergoyles ...and other assorted bits to make up, usually 1500pts.
My problem, and the reason for this thread, is that however many tactics I try, either my own, or inspired by this forum, they seem to crash out due to reliance on luck, either my own or my opponent's.
It feels like snakes and ladders, not a game of tactics!
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Post by voraciousapathy on Mar 7, 2013 21:45:17 GMT
You have a mismatched army full of odds-and-ends which make no sense, capitalize on nothing in particular (you're weak at shooting, and mediocre at assault, and you can't even spam scoring units), you barely take advantage of the deluge of psychic power Tyranids can bring to bear by stalwartly refusing to use Tervigons in multiples despite using a counts-as army, where you could convert them to look like anything you want, and you have no redundancy, which is the absolute #1 HUGEST mistake you could make with any list, ever, and Tyranids are a Codex where that's about 300% more important.
Your list looks like something out of a GW Codex. "Buy a Chaos Lord, 5 Plague Marines, 20 Possessed, a Defiler, a Dreadnaught, a Land Raider, 10 Chaos Marines with a Flamer and a Power Weapon, 5 Chaos Terminators with one of every Combi-Weapon, and a single Warp Spawn. Prepare to win every game."
No.
This is why you're losing.
An excellent strategist can make up for a bad list, but this is way, way worse than "bad". This is a list composed of "models I like", or so it seems.
Wanna win? Build something like this:
1 x Flyrant (or a Swarmlord/Walkrant with Guards and Shell) 1 x Tervigon HQ, 3 Powers, AD/TS 2 x 10 Ymgarls (or 2 x 3 Hive Guard) 1 x Doom (or 1 x 10 Ymgarls, if using Hive Guard in Slot 1 and 2) 2 x Tervigon Troops, 3 Powers, AD/TS 2 x Gant squads 2 x 'Stealer Squads Maybe some Trygons, if points allow.
It's not perfect, but the principle should be evident: if you don't want to lose, design your list with some kind of game plan besides, "Man, I hope this one squad of guys who are the ONLY guys who can do this job don't screw up, or die before they get a chance to try."
Dang, man.
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Post by baconslice on Mar 7, 2013 22:10:18 GMT
Pretty harsh words above, but maybe valid. 6th ed changed how almost/ every dex worked. Depending on your opinions for better or worse. Where in 5th hoardes of assaulting units worked. 6th is about shooty. Dakka flyrants and fexs, monstrous creatures and psychic attacks is mainly where it's at now. Assault is still there, just now used differently. I also play blood angels, and a similar thing is going on with them I feel.
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Post by commandersasha on Mar 7, 2013 22:24:13 GMT
I take your point, although I think you're being a little harsh; I am not a complete beginner, and am aware of redundancy: I believe that you don't HAVE to take three of anything for it to work. The Hiveguard are anti-vehicle, but so is the Flyrant; the Flyrant is vanguard combat, but so are the Ymgarls; The Ymgarls are disruption, but so are the marching Hiveguard...etc I have won a lot of my games through adaptability, and I made a lot of use of my Shrikes in 5th, as great late-game solutions.
The weird thing is, I'm NOT LOSING! I find I am winning about 1/3 of my games, comparable to my performance in 5th against the same opponents (friendly but serious, not super-competitive). I just find I am winning by long-term attrition, which is of course the main asset of Tervigons: spawn and survive.
I don't feel that I am winning by my own tactical acumen, and that is why I am not enjoying it as much.
I still intend to stick to my personal rule of non-spamming non-troop units, as I consider that to be a defining aspect of myself as a gamer: If any unit is too powerful compared to other units in the codex (as I believe a Tervigon is for the cost at the moment), one shouldn't fill the army with them.
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Post by predator666x on Mar 7, 2013 23:02:30 GMT
Funnily enought i some times feel the same way. 40k tends to get a bit lucky and every thing matters on that one roll dice. Thought if you think about it, battle is a random place and warfare in general is random. We just have a dice to give us the randomess. Also if everything was predictable it would be very borring to play
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Post by infornography on Mar 8, 2013 6:15:24 GMT
You have a mix of things that come in from reserve and march across the field. I would recommend embracing one or the other.
I would recommend dropping the gargoyles and Hive guard so you can keep your firebase in cover in the backfield and bombard the hell out of your enemies. Biovores are definitely compatible with a reserve heavy strategy, they are your ticket to first blood and can respond to a variety of places on the MAP without moving. Hive guard I feel are a bit too close range for a good reserve strategy.
Take Hive Commander on the Flyrant and outflank the crushigon.
And take some cheap troop, probably termagants and use them to hold any backfield objectives close to your firebase. The prime is fine for providing your firebase with synapse but I use a pair of support zoeys.
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Post by voncrown on Mar 8, 2013 7:00:07 GMT
I still intend to stick to my personal rule of non-spamming non-troop units, as I consider that to be a defining aspect of myself as a gamer: If any unit is too powerful compared to other units in the codex ( as I believe a Tervigon is for the cost at the moment), one shouldn't fill the army with them. The problem really isn't that tervigons don't cost enough, it's everything else costing way too much (i.e., same as tervigons, but doing less cool stuff) I'm a big fan of the good ol' swarmlord myself, with plenty of biomancy all around.
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Post by gigasnail on Mar 8, 2013 8:06:19 GMT
let infornagraphy and VA guide you in this. your list/tactics could really use some work.
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Post by innocent on Mar 8, 2013 10:58:24 GMT
6th ed is a game centered on objectives. That might be the reason while you feel like your tactics are not working yet you still win: you are measuring your tactical success on the amount of models your models kill. That's just not how you win in this edition. That is also why the Tervigons are so strong: they are scoring. Nothing beats a Tervigon sitting on an objective in cover with FNP generating its own screen of Gaunts around it. It's arguably the best objective sitter in the game. The sad truth is: if you don't take 2+ Tervis, you will struggle. I haven't read your list, but food for thoughts hopefully
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Post by commandersasha on Mar 8, 2013 11:45:08 GMT
The conclusion I have come to is this: what I don't like is C:T in 6th. Tyranids are certainly competitive in 6th (as I am proving, even with a weaker, mixed list), but their key to winning is to weather the storm, and win by attrition. As such, the strongest Tyranid lists will be about lots of bodies, best exemplified by Tervigon spam.
That is not a playstyle that I find myself enthusiastic about.
Bear in mind that I don't play Tyranids because I like the models and fluff, I play Counts-As-Tyranids because their playstyle in 5th seemed closest to how I wanted my Skaven to operate.
I have started to build my DE army, and think I will pour my energies into that for a while, to see how I enjoy the game with a fast, shooty army including fliers(grumble, hate the things!); by the time I've given them a fair run, we may even have a new Tyranid codex, and I will have a whole new set of modelling challenges. (I wonder whether that might be an issue: the past few models I've built have all been underperformers, as I already have all the better units: Harpy, lone Dakkafex, Rippers. Nothing dampens your enthusiasm more than spending £££s and hours on a model, only for it to whiff out every game, and cost you the game because you had to drop stronger units to fit it in.)
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Post by ranmafan on Mar 8, 2013 12:23:16 GMT
I enjoy playing Tyranids in any number of ways. Although most of my regular lists include Tervigons, I have fielded various tactical lists with varying degrees of success. Competitively speaking, every army will have SOME stagnant lists. That will always be the case. So let's talk about lists that are fun, can win (if not put up a fight) and do not comprise the staples.
Tyranids can certainly put up a fight - my favourite list is literally a Genestealer army led by a Swarmlord. Yes, I keep a few Hive Guards in but that's mostly to keep my Stealers from blowing themselves up when they kill a Rhino to get at the juicy contents inside.
Although what I've noticed in 6th ed is that my successful Nid lists *tend* to be focused lists - either pure melee or pure shooting, with only some concessions to tarpit models and other small, tactical assets.
I've won a fair number of games against players I consider to be around my skill level - often by the skin of my teeth (literally 95 - 97% casualties), but those are the best games.
Of course I can't say the same when I pitch my armies against purely competitive lists - but for 'regular' non-metagamed sessions, I find the increased focus on movement, positioning and target priority makes for more tactical games overall.
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Post by infornography on Mar 8, 2013 13:02:41 GMT
I don't find my lists are focused on attrition. It is all about getting in the enemy's face on turn 2 and wrecking their mojo, then wrecking their toys.
It works and generally quickly and decisively where every unit has an important role to fill and fills it well.
Granted the game does go on past turn 3 or 4 generally, but turns 2 and 3 have already decided the game, it is just playing out the round past that point in most cases. Either I decisively wreck their backfield, or they manage to hold against the onslaught.
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