SM List (2000)

[infornography]

Terminators are not that big a concern to me. Just keep marching away from them and pepper them with bolter rounds, they will die to it eventually. The cost of power fists and axes is far too much to be worth it on dedicated ranged units in my opinion.

Also MY backfield shooters tend to be closer to midfield due to range. If they do get assaulted by a few terminators they will retreat, automatically rally, and shoot the terminators the next round. No big deal.

[paxmiles]

But the thing is that you're playing SM, an army specialized in not being good in only one function. If your SM become purely one role, consider allies that preform the dedicated role better.

Terminators were an example, but I also only had two hit the tactical squad. Likely, they DS and lose 3 to your shooting. They were a valid one, as a 200pt squad being dispatched for a 200-ish scoring unit is very reasonable. The point was to hammer the power weapon concept. My (non-devastator) dedicated shooting units usually have at least a sword to discourage assaults.
-Pax

[infornography]

I never bother with power weapons in a unit that intends to stay at range. It works for me. Tac Squads are bad enough at melee that the 15 point power weapon feels like a waste to me. Especially as a power axe or fist on a sergeant. He will usually get challenged by something that doesn't strike at 1 and taken out before he swings. I don't mind as much on terminators because not much is likely to kill them before they swing, but on a tac squad sergeant, even an enemy character with no power weapon will often kill him before init 1 with sheer weight of wounds. For that reason I avoid putting init 1 weapons on characters unless they have armor 2+.

[andy089]

Okay so let's say I have 1 Power Axe. For the sake of it let's say I have a power fist:
As you said the "usual" attacks don't do much, so practically I swing at the same time as the terminators (so I still have to deal with those wounds from the first and probably second round), I will probably get obliterated by a full squad, I might endure for a bit when it's not a full squad anymore but those 5 models of tacticals cost me 100 points, tying up 200 points of terminators, so that's not too bad. What would the 25 points of a PF get me? 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, about 1.25 wounds if my maths is right, each wound causing ID since S8, with the power axe it would be 15 points, same wounds but no ID. Since he is at the front he'll probably die in the first round of combat, having caused a bit over 1 wound. I would rather get a plasma gun for that - terminators (except in a land raider) can't deep strike and assault. Vanguards can, but they don't have 2+. If they do, I'll get a cheap unit to sacrifice...

As for the "your army shouldn't be played like that!"-argument: How are tacticals good in ANY function really? yeah, you can go CC oriented with terminators and vanguard or shooty with sternguard and devastators and stuff, but I don't see why one HAS to mix these...

The point is that even IF half of my scoring units are killed or tied up in CC, I can still hold a whole lot of objectives. Try to get rid of them. Also - against high T models, scouts are actually halfway decent. Precision shots help also - I believe those 100 (or 90) points are well spent.

[infornography]

Yeah, scouts with sniper rifles and camo cloaks in the same list as at least one TFC can get a pretty reliable 2+ cover save and strike at long range. They aren't real reliable on the damage but the chance to pin is nice and so is the chance to ignore the target's armor save. They can hold down a backfield objective, contribute at long range, and aren't a big enough threat to attract much attention. Pretty good deal by my estimation.

Yeah a tac squad handles flamers better and does more damage for about the same cost, but they lack the range and the cover save makes scouts even MORE durable against any ranged attack that doesn't ignore cover.

[paxmiles]

Mar 11, 2013 10:19:57 GMT andy089 said:

As for the "your army shouldn't be played like that!"-argument: How are tacticals good in ANY function really? yeah, you can go CC oriented with terminators and vanguard or shooty with sternguard and devastators and stuff, but I don't see why one HAS to mix these....

It's not that a tactical squad is particularly amazing in melee, but the power weapons preform two functions which aid a shooty unit in melee: (1) Power Weapons make opponents reconsider charges, and (2) Power Weapons decrease time the unit is unable to shoot because they are locked in combat.

As for terminators, again, it was just an example. Tons of units should be just as fearsome.

Personally, I take power fists and axes on large tactical squads (10), and power swords on ones which are likely to split into combat squads. My sternguard actually has a lightning claw in addition to his combi weapon. I haven't tested the lance enough, though the maul is awesome if in a unit with unwieldy weapons due to its concussive nature.

The other good thing about the power weapons in this edition is that I can challenge them, which often allows me to reduce enemy damage to the squad, while typically lowering their leadership should I slay the enemy character.

But, sure, this could just be a play style thing. Perhaps it won't work for you, while it works great for me.
-Pax

[andy089]

The thing is that I would happily sacrifice a cheap shooty unit (that's why I have many) to tie them up. Nobody will think twice about assaulting a shooty unit with a dedicated CC unit because of ONE power weapon. And IF they assault it's not about the time they're tied up in CC because a shooty unit will probably not survive it anyway.

I know that this is probably not "they way it should be played", but I already have a CC oriented Gk army. so yeah...I want to shoot...=) but thanks

[andy089]

Hi guys,
I updated the army list because I got myself a darktalon and am converting it to a stormtalon. So see what you think of this:

HQ: Pedro Kantor

Troops: Scouts (5 extra scouts, sniper rifles, Camo Cloaks, Telion, Heavy Bolter)

Troops: Scouts (Sniper rifles, Camo Cloaks)

Elite: Sternguard (5 extra Sternguards, 5 Combi-Plasma, 3 Combi-Flamers, 2 Heavy Flamers, Razorback with Dozer Blade and TL Assault Cannon)

Elite: Sternguard (5 Combi-Meltas, Razorback with Dozer Blade and TL Assault Cannon)

Fast Attack: Stormtalon (Typhoon Missile Launcher)

Heavy Support: Stormraven (Typhoon Missile Launcher, TL Assault Cannon, Hurricane Bolter, extra armor)

Heavy Support: Thunderfire Cannon

Heavy Support: Thunderfire Cannon

Fortification: Imperial Bastion (Icarus Lascannon)

[infornography]

Fairly nasty list, just a few things I would tweak. I assume Pedro is tooling around int he razorback with the flamer Sternguard. I generally do not consider dozer blades worth the points. The risk of running through terrain is pretty minimal as it is.

Typhoons are very much not worth it. Notably overcosted in current edition. If you are using them to kill vehicles, consider the fact that a multimelta has 3 times the likeihood of causing the target to explode before you even take into consideration the melta attribute as compared to a missile launcher and a typhoon costs more for effectively two missile launchers that are not even twin linked. The multimelta is absolutely the better pick for the nose gun on the storm raven.

And also I'm not sure if you have the Death from the Skies book, but since that came out skyhammers or las cannons is where it is at for these guys. Skyhammers are cheap enough now to be a really attractive choice and las cannons are just straight up the best choice against anything with AV higher than 10.

Plus Sky hammers have a similar target profile to the assault cannon that thing is packing.

That will save you a few points to play with, maybe grabbing a transport for some scouts.

[andy089]

Well, what transport could/would I use for the scouts? And for which ones, since all of them are tooled to dig in and shoot and only come out late in the game to contest/grab objectives. After changing the loadout I would end up with 55 points to spare, which won't really get me far, except as you said, a transport for 5 scouts, but I don't think that would be worth it...

I do have the death from the skies book and I totally see your point, but I think the ability of assault cannons to deal with both infantry and vehicles match very well with missile launchers.
In case of the stormtalon I think it's superior to the other options since skyhammers can't blast, 60" are not needed if my main gun is 24" and S7 is not that great in my opinion. On the other hand the lascannon has only 1 shot, TL at BS5 is not really necessary and S9 is pretty much overkill for flyers isn't it?
For the Stormraven I like the missile launcher again because I can use it against infantry and vehicles equally and it fits in well with the hurricane bolters and assault cannon (krak for assault cannon and frag for hurricane bolters) - the melta is a good option but I want to keep all my units as versatile as possible, that's why I am going for Assault Cannon/Typhoon Missile Launchers all round.

I I am thinking about putting Pedro together with the flamer sternguard into the stormraven to drop them in close to some enemy, flame and assault.

I think dozer blades are worth the few points they cost, because I will be trying to take advantage of any cover I can find, especially with 24" guns (if those were lascannons it would be a different story).

[infornography]

Do you face a TON of infantry? You have 2 thunderfire cannons, 2 assault cannon razorbacks, 15 sternguard, and 15 snipers. That amount of anti infantry firepower should decimate all but the most tenacious of ork green tides. You seem somewhat weak in the anti armor category with only a single dedicated anti armor weapon in the form of the icarus.

If your enemies mostly field giant blobs of infantry this configuration makes sense. If you are facing a decent mix, it looks like you would have a hard time popping transports and removing heavy vehicles.

Let me know how it works out though.

[andy089]

Well I figured for terminators and such I will use IG. Not heavy artillery but lots of fire. 1 combined squad of 3 platoon squads receiving FRFSRF from a platoon command squad in a chimera and a Primaris Psyker casting that Divination primaris power on them.

Also, I am replacing the Combi flamers with combi meltas. So the guys coming out of the stormraven melta something then assault it (I will try to get another powerfist into that unit) to take care of the highest AV.

I think snipers are really useful against MCs as well, so I am keeping them. I reduced them to 2x5 scouts though.

The assault cannons are not only against infantry - twin linked + rending with S6 is fairly sure to strip some hull points of vehicles.

I am not sure about the fortification yet. it all seems great but has drawbacks:
1) an imperial bastion with the heavy bolters and the quad gun providing great LoS over the field and a place for the snipers to hide in, but no cover for the IG blob. I could try to use some drop pods to provide some cover for them but then I can't shoot with all of them, plus I will probably have the scouts in bolstered ruins anyway and having the sternguard in there is not really effective...
2) The Aegis Defence line - provides cover for the IG blob and a gun for Telion to use. But that's about it.
3) The Skyshield - provides 4++ for sternguards or the IG blob or whatever I put on top, but limited LoS. If the IG blob is underneath it, it is save from ordnance weapons but doesn't really get any cover. Also, the deep-strike thing is not really worth it for me as I don't have a lot of deep striking units.

[andy089]

So - I solved that issue with fortifications rather elegantly: I am going up to 2k.

HQ: Pedro Kantor
Elite: 10 Sternguards with 5 Combi-Melta, Power fist, 5 Combi-Plasma and a Assault Cannon Razorback with Dozer Blade
Troops: 5 Scouts with Camo cloaks, Telion and a Heavy Bolter
Troops: 5 Scouts with Camo Cloaks and a Heavy Bolter
Fast Attack: Stormtalon with Typhoon Missile Launcher
Heavy Support: Thunderfire Cannon
Heavy Support: Thunderfire Cannon
Heavy Support: Stormtalon with Typhoon Missile Launcher, Hurricane Bolter, Assault Cannon and extra armor

IG Allies:
HQ: Primaris Psyker
Troops:
Platoon Command Squad with Vox Caster and a Chimera with Camo Netting
Infantry Platoon with Vox Caster and Commissar
Infantry Platoon
Infantry Platoon

Fortifications:
Aegis Defense Line with Icarus Lascannon
Imperial Bastion with Icarus Lascannon

The platoons are combined and behind the aegis, with the Platoon command squad ordering first rank fire, second rank fire and getting prescience by the Primaris psyker.
One Icarus lascannon is inside a fortified ruin, manned by telion, the other scouts are inside the bastion with the Lascannon on top of the bastion.
The PF/Combi-Melta Sternguards go into the Stormraven to shoot melta and assault afterwards.
TFCs take care of hordes and slow down infantry and vehicles.

I tried to go for weapons that have different profiles or that can be used against different targets with equal effect to give me maximum efficiency against everything that's thrown at me ^^