Death to the Dark Angels: Chaos army 1500 help!

[DukeMantis]

Hey all

Two things;

1) I dont actually play CSM, this is a thread ive made in the hope of helping a close friend who is getting hammered every game he plays against Dark Angels.

2) My friend has a large range of CSM models but so far only 1 Helldrake.

So i started a thread about GW being meanies for making certain armies the hard counter for others, wherein it was highlighted to me the problems for my friend could stem from his army lists and playstyle. I feel this is probably a large factor so i wanted to share a list he made with you, also a list i made for him and hopefully hear any thoughts/advice on the lists/situation overall.

To give a little perspective, the CSM player knows the rules (perhaps not enough to 'work' them yet) but does not play with alot of confidence in 40K, the DA player has been crushing him mercillesly almost every game they have ever played, so i think his morale is shot. Furthermore my CSM friend isnt involved in local meta or local game store stuff, so he only plays his two friends, the DA and an Ork guy.

So what is the DA player doing? Well he is fielding a mixed list of a little bit of ravenwing, and a little bit of deathwing termies/knights, he also takes a couple of standard tacticals, maybe a token vindicator, predator or devastator squad in heavy support. From what i can tell he tailors a bit too.

With the advent of the new CSM book my friend made the following list to try to stop his losing streak:

HQ: Chaos Lord (65pts): Mark of Slaanesh (15pts), Steed of Slaanesh (20pts),Aura of Dark Glory (15pts), The Black Mace (45pts), Veteran of the long war (5pts). TOTAL: 165pts

HQ: Sorcerer (60pts): Mark of Slaanesh (15pts),Terminator Amour, (25pts), Mastery Lvl.2 (25pts), Veteran of the long war (5pts). TOTAL: 130pts

TROOP: 7x Noise Marines (129pts): 7x Sonic Blasters (21pts), (Champion) Melta bomb (5pts), 7x Veterans of the long war (7pts). TOTAL: 162pts

TROOP: 10x Chaos Marines (140pts): Melta gun (10pts), (Champion) Melta bomb (5pts), 10x Veterans of the long war (10pts). TOTAL: 175pts

TROOP: 10x Chaos Marines (140pts): Melta gun (10pts), (Champion) Melta bomb (5pts), 10x Veterans of the long war (10pts). TOTAL: 175pts

TROOP: 13x Chaos Cultists. TOTAL: 62pts

TROOP: 13x Chaos Cultists. TOTAL: 62pts

HEAVY SUPPORT: 3x Obliterators. TOTAL: 210

FAST ATTACK: Hell Drake, Baleflamer (Free). TOTAL: 170

FAST ATTACK: 5x Chaos Bikers (110pts): 5x Mark of Slaanesh (10pts), Veterans of the long war (5pts), Icon of Excess (35pts), 2x Melta gun’s (20pts), (Champion) Melta bomb (5pts). TOTAL: 185pts

GRAND TOTAL: 1496/1500

-----

He also asked me to try and write a list for him that i thought could hurt the Dark Angels, im no Chaos player but this is what i came up with:

HQ-
Chaos Lord - 65 (in one of the noise marine units)
Mark of Slaanesh – 15
Sigil of Corruption - 25
2x Lightning Claws - 30
bike-20
vets of the long war - 5
160

HQ-
Sorceror – 60 (goes in the cultist unit)
brand-30
level 3 – 50
bike - 20
160

Troops-
20 Cultists w/ 2x Flamers + mark of Slaanesh - 120

10 Noise Marines w/ 2x Blastmaster, bolters - 240

10 Noise Marines w/ Sonic Blasters, champ has melta bombs - 215

10 Noise Marines w/ Sonic Blasters, champ has Doom Siren, Combi Melta, Power Weapon, Melta Bombs, Gift of Mutation – 247

2x rhino – 70 pts (not to carry troops persay, just to block LoS)
Fast attack -
helldrake w/ baleflamer – 170

5 Havocs - 115
4x autocannon

---- 1497


Thanks for taking the time to read this post Help us kill the Derp Angels!

[ZergLord]

Both of the lists are flawed in some way. I actually like your friend's list more.

With the advent of the new CSM book my friend made the following list to try to stop his losing streak:
HQ: Chaos Lord (65pts): Mark of Slaanesh (15pts), Steed of Slaanesh (20pts),Aura of Dark Glory (15pts), The Black Mace (45pts), Veteran of the long war (5pts). TOTAL: 165pts

HQ: Sorcerer (60pts): Mark of Slaanesh (15pts),Terminator Amour, (25pts), Mastery Lvl.2 (25pts), Veteran of the long war (5pts). TOTAL: 130pts

TROOP: 7x Noise Marines (129pts): 7x Sonic Blasters (21pts), (Champion) Melta bomb (5pts), 7x Veterans of the long war (7pts). TOTAL: 162pts

TROOP: 10x Chaos Marines (140pts): Melta gun (10pts), (Champion) Melta bomb (5pts), 10x Veterans of the long war (10pts). TOTAL: 175pts

TROOP: 10x Chaos Marines (140pts): Melta gun (10pts), (Champion) Melta bomb (5pts), 10x Veterans of the long war (10pts). TOTAL: 175pts

TROOP: 13x Chaos Cultists. TOTAL: 62pts

TROOP: 13x Chaos Cultists. TOTAL: 62pts

HEAVY SUPPORT: 3x Obliterators. TOTAL: 210

FAST ATTACK: Hell Drake, Baleflamer (Free). TOTAL: 170

FAST ATTACK: 5x Chaos Bikers (110pts): 5x Mark of Slaanesh (10pts), Veterans of the long war (5pts), Icon of Excess (35pts), 2x Melta gun’s (20pts), (Champion) Melta bomb (5pts). TOTAL: 185pts

-Lord goes on a bike, because it helps him against str8 attacks,
-Every time a CSM player has a Sorcerer and doesn't make him Lvl3 with Spell familiar, a puppy dies. ALWAYS make him that way, it's one of advantages CSM have against loyalists. Also, Terminator armor on Sorcs is useless.
-Noise Marines should be 5 dudes with a Blastmaster. Sonic Blasters eat too many points.
-Those CSMs... yikes. Slow moving infantry with Meltaguns. They should have 2x Plasmaguns per unit.
-Why no flamers on Cultists? Also, 1 unit of 20 is enough in this case (Sorc goes here btw).
-Oblits should have Mark of Nurgle and VotLW.
-Drake, Bikers - ok.

Not a bad list overall but since this is 1500 points I'd dump some Cultists and a Sorcerer and add a unit of Autocannon Havocs.

HQ-
Chaos Lord - 65 (in one of the noise marine units)
Mark of Slaanesh – 15
Sigil of Corruption - 25
2x Lightning Claws - 30
bike-20
vets of the long war - 5
160

HQ-
Sorceror – 60 (goes in the cultist unit)
brand-30
level 3 – 50
bike - 20
160

Troops-
20 Cultists w/ 2x Flamers + mark of Slaanesh - 120

10 Noise Marines w/ 2x Blastmaster, bolters - 240

10 Noise Marines w/ Sonic Blasters, champ has melta bombs - 215

10 Noise Marines w/ Sonic Blasters, champ has Doom Siren, Combi Melta, Power Weapon, Melta Bombs, Gift of Mutation – 247

2x rhino – 70 pts (not to carry troops persay, just to block LoS)
Fast attack -
helldrake w/ baleflamer – 170

5 Havocs - 115
4x autocannon

---- 1497

His list is better than yours because he has bikes and all of your Noise Marines and HQs are built wrongly. Noise Marine units are 5 guys + 1 Blastmaster, Sorcs are always only Lvl3 with a Spell Familiar (and maybe on a Bike), Lords are either cheaply built with a Brand or Bike Lord with a Daemon Weapon or Powerfist/Lightning Claw combo. And never put MoS on Cultists.

[DukeMantis]

Thanks alot for the feedback ZergLord, its funny my list was one i put together based on a long chat with chaos players in the 3++ chatroom, perhaps they were trolling me

P.S- With the powerfist lightning claw combo would you be forced to choose which of these two weapons you want to use each phae or are there effects somehow combined? Thanks!

[ZergLord]

You must choose one weapon.

[DukeMantis]

Thanks ZergLord I went through your suggestions today with my buddy and he is already feeling more confident!

If anyone else has any input on this id love to hear it!

[infornography]

I personally love noise marines with sonic blasters, they are expensive but you get a unit that can send salvo after salvo of cover ignoring firepower downfield. Noise marines should always take a blastmaster though. That gun is VERY good. Also they have little use for Veterans of the long war. Drop it from them as they are a dedicated ranged unit.

That said, if we are tailoring for anti space marine, thousand sons would be a better pick. AP3 bolters. Although I understand if he wants to stick to a slaaneshi theme.

I agree with the flamers needing to be on cultists. They benefit highly from them.

The foot slogging marine units should either lose the veterans of the long war and trade melta for plasma or add on chainswords. Right now they are not optimized for either close or long range fighting. With CSM squads you really should focus on one or the other. If the unit isn't designed to get into melee, don't take veterans of the long war, flamers, meltas, melta bombs, or chainswords. If they ARE designed for getting into melee then go all out on that but don't take expensive ranged options on them.

Terminator armor on CSM HQ picks is generally a waste because of how many points it costs and how many options it removes. I would rather take sigil of corruption and some form of steed. Whether it be an actual chaos steed or a bike, either way works.

If we are tweaking for anti DA, bring power swords and axes.

Also Chaos terminators are cheap and good. Might want to consider squeezing them into the list. Equip them half with axes and half with swords to keep them cheap.

Lord on a bike is always nice. I do think you would be better served with Sigil of corruption instead of Aura of dark glory. One better invuln save does make a big difference.

[ZergLord]

The foot slogging marine units should either lose the veterans of the long war

No. Never. Chaos Space Marines always come with VotLW because of:
-Ld 10, Ld 9 without a Champ,
-Hatred is nice, and is even nicer if they have CC weapons

But the main reason is higher Ld. It is one of 2 advantages that CSMs have against Loyalists when it comes to Morale. When you aren't Fearless or have ATSKNF, Ld 10 is the next best thing.

[Nightmare20]

Helldrakes. You win.

[barenone]

IDK what about thos thousand sons who get those nice ap 3 bolters, that should shut down any sm army.

[infornography]

Barenone, Thousand Sons are VERY effective, but not as much as you might think. A smart opponent will just put his space marines more in cover than he normally would and get a 4+ instead of 3+ save. Not that big a difference, but if you can capitalize on him bunkering up instead of having his marines more in the open, with say, a heldrake or two, then they can be devastating.

I can understand the benefit of the one higher leadership, but I'm not sure it is worth the points expenditure on a unit that isn't going to be seeing much if any melee combat. Also if you have a lord on a bike, he can always go join them to bolster them with fearless if he is in the neighborhood.