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Post by Space is pretty big on Feb 27, 2013 15:41:47 GMT
Lictors rely on cover, Tanks pretty much avoid cover like the plague because it leads to them getting immobilized or worse.
The only exception to this is long range tanks like Fire Prisms (which tend to move around a whole lot), or whirlwinds/basilisks/ordinance tanks which tend to sit separate from the entire army, making Lictors one time use. Plus a loooot of those long range tanks are cheap, so you're paying a hefty fine for a single kill, one that can easily be gotten by other units like Hive Guard, who happen to be a lot more reliable, and have many other uses.
As for special units that you want to muck with for a turn? For devastators and other long range shooters, again you're trading a whole lot of usefulness both point wise and with that elite slot, for a one turn headache to a single unit. Not to mention smart players will know not to shoot the lictor with the devastator squad.
Plus you're gambling that the enemy will have a devastator squad or equivalent unit in their army.
With units like Hive Guard, Zoanthropes, and Tervigons, they pretty much are a pain in the A$$ to anything. In every description you've given, you've painted Lictors as a specialty unit, so unless you're custom building your army against a specific opponent, then you're just gambling that the opponent will bring with them something that the Lictor is useful against.
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Post by nurglitch on Feb 27, 2013 15:52:29 GMT
Lictors have a particular combination of wargear, special rules, characteristics, models, and Force Organization slot. Maybe it's not "terribly scary," whatever that is supposed to mean, but that combination means they have the profile to act as shock assault.
Now, they share a rule in common with any Tyranid unit that can enter player from reserves, in that they can give the first turn harrowing a miss. Which actually complicates the army lists they work well with because that makes our opponent's shooting priority easier when we offer them fewer targets on the first turn. However, unlike deep striking, or outflanking, or dormant units, Chameleonic Scales allows you to access anywhere on the board, and the hard part is often resisting the temptation to put them in our opponent's backfield to try to knock out a unit like a Manticore or a Heavy Weapon Squad or Long Fangs.
Stealth gives them a bonus to cover, and Instinctive Behaviour: Lurk combined with Ld10 means they are very unlikely to hide in terrain doing nothing. It also means they can go to ground in area terrain and gain a Cv2+. In addition, they have Move Through Cover and Fleet, meaning that they will add a dice to difficult terrain rolls, and re-roll running and charging rolls, which is handy when moving around in area terrain for the Cv3+/Cv4+. That means that they can be placed in area terrain like a ruin for a Cv3+, possibly shoot, and charge after absorbing overwatch on the terrain and their native W characteristic.
So they're good at getting into combat, because they can avoid penalties from movement, from enemy fire, from overwatch, and from losing the closest W1 model in the unit and so on. And they have Hit & Run at I6 as well. That extra 3D6 is handy. I'll get back to that.
In combat the I6 and Assault Grenades means that they'll usually attack before, or at the same time in certain rare cases, the defending unit gets to attack, reducing the incoming attacks that usually make Genestealers and other high Initiative Tyranids die. Rather than soaking the wounds like units such as Rippers, Termagants, and Gargoyles might, Lictors kill the other guy first. Hitting first is useful, particularly where the unit hitting first usually hits on 3+s, re-rolling 1s, wounds on 2+, and occasionally ignores armour outright.
I think it's safe to say we're on different pages when it comes to the basics of which units can charge before they are shot to death. Ymgarl Genestealers do better against flamers and other weak template weapons that would ignore the Lictor's cover save, but the Lictor's cover save is much better than the Ymgarl Genestealer's cover and armour saves on the turn they arrive, and the turn they charge (the same turn for Ymgarl Genestealers). Then Ymgarl Genestealers get to attack at I1, while Lictors get the I6.
And where the Ymgarl Genestealers make it to combat, and survive the first round, they can either murder their opponents and expose themselves to a round of fire in the following player turn, or stay stuck in combat waiting for a counter-charge unit. Lictors can do that too, but they also have the option of engaging in a Hit & Run attack, especially useful if they're not going to survive the next round of combat, let alone until the next Tyranid assault phase, and move 10.5" back into cover. Alternately, if they do survive, pleasantly occupied against an enemy that can't roll to save their own lives, they can duck out at the end of that third assault phase to re-locate somewhere useful once their tarpitting duties are over.
I think the problem is that you want to use Lictors as some kind of super-genestealer. They're not. Ymgarl Genestealers are the super-genestealers, and such Genestealers are likewise not so great at the kind of things that Lictors can do. Ymgarl Genestealers aren't shock-assault so much as they're mop-up. If they're coming in on turn 2, then you want them to hit the units that have been knocked out of their transports by Lictors or Hive Guard or Zoanthropes, or units that have been pinned by Warriors, Biovores, Carnifex broods, Harpies, and so on, or vehicles rather than getting into any kind of protracted fight against something that can overwatch. Their lack of assault grenades makes them lousy assassins, but they add lots of oomph to any ongoing combat.
If you're going to take Lictors, you want to stock up on other reserve units like Ymgarls, and so on, and not so you can utilize the Pheromone Trail, but so that you can overall your opponent's ability to deal with all of the units threatening him. These units excel in different roles, but that means taking them to complement each other in the game, rather than choosing one or the other.
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Post by nurglitch on Feb 27, 2013 16:02:10 GMT
Space is pretty big:
All of the units in the Tyranid Elite slot are specialists; it's why they don't have upgrades and options.
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Post by swarmy on Feb 27, 2013 16:18:27 GMT
Well Nurglitch, that pretty much sums it up. That's the reason I've been quietly doing exactly what you talk about with lictors for a little while now. I don't need internet validation, I know what I've killed with a pair of lictors, a mawloc, and ymgarls in the same list I wish more of these threads could be ended by just stating what you said at the end: "These units excel in different roles, but that means taking them to complement each other in the game, rather than choosing one or the other." With a few exceptions, that's the case for most of these threads...
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Post by coredump on Feb 27, 2013 16:58:00 GMT
Lictors ... that combination means they have the profile to act as shock assault. You keep saying that like it means something. *WHY* do their stats make them a good choice as 'shock assault'. And even better, what about them makes them a better choice than our other options? I find it funny that even when you get responded to, you ignore it and then just quote yourself as if your claims had never been addressed nor refuted. Convenient that. Please provide an example where Lictors are a better choice as "shock assault' that yealers. Heck, Shrikes are better at it than Lictors. Stealers or HGs in a Pod is probably better. You claim that those of us that don't see it just 'don't understand' the kinds of lists that would benefit. So we ask you, educate us, enlighten us, show us the way. Provide one such list where the Lictor *is* the right choice for the role needed. so..... You do realize, I hope, that just about everyone here already knows the rules. Just because you spend several paragraphs regurgitating the rules for Move Through Cover, or Fleet, or Assault grenades... does not make you sound knowledgeable, nor does it advance the conversation. All it does is sound pedantic and condescending. Of course, it also has the advantage of allowing you to just happen to avoid the various questions that have been posed to you... convenient that. Lictor cover save is 4+, yealer armor save is 4+. Not sure what figures you are comparing... and yealers dont' need to be in cover to get that save. (Lictors have a slight advantage against AP4-1 weapons when in cover, but not much. And if they also are S8+, lictors are screwed.) The only way Lictors get "much better" is if they go to ground. Which kind of makes it hard to be 'shock assault'. And you conveniently leave out the real issue. The lictors need a better cover save because they are forced to sit around for a turn getting shot at. The yealers don't care about that, since they move into CC the same turn they arrive. Yes, we all know what H&R does. But you leave off the most likely option. Yealers don't *need* to run, they hit the first round, then kill their target in the next round. but you keep saying Lictors are meant as Shock Assault, which is kind of the definition of stealers and yealers. wait...... What??!!?? I'm not even sure how to respond to this.... Unit A comes in and sits around getting shot at for a turn, allows the opponent a turn to adjust, then charges and gets 12 attacks. Unit B comes in and gets to assault immediately with 32 attacks. (though possibly going at I1) And you are claiming that Unit A is the "shock assault" choice...??
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Post by coredump on Feb 27, 2013 17:06:45 GMT
I wish more of these threads could be ended by just stating what you said at the end: "These units excel in different roles, but that means taking them to complement each other in the game, rather than choosing one or the other." With a few exceptions, that's the case for most of these threads... Hey Swarmy, if you like lictors, and they are working for you, cool. Use them. But 'different roles' is not a reason. I could make that same statement about Pyrovores, or about a 430pt HT, or a number of other bad choices. Hey, I play with OOE occasionally because I think it is fun. He is overcosted and definitely a sub optimal choice....but I don't try and claim it is because he fills a 'different role' Can you come up with 3 situations where lictors would have been a better option than yealers? Heck, even Shrikes are usually a better choice.
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Post by fleetofclaw on Feb 27, 2013 17:47:05 GMT
Well Nurglitch, that pretty much sums it up. That's the reason I've been quietly doing exactly what you talk about with lictors for a little while now. I don't need internet validation, I know what I've killed with a pair of lictors, a mawloc, and ymgarls in the same list I wish more of these threads could be ended by just stating what you said at the end: "These units excel in different roles, but that means taking them to complement each other in the game, rather than choosing one or the other." With a few exceptions, that's the case for most of these threads... Yes, I can roll dice, and the result of those dice may mean that my lichtor(s) did something successfully. I have other things in my list, I roll dice, and they may or may not do something successfully. Laspistols can kill Trygons on a lucky day. So what? No one is debating whether or not Lichtors can *do* "things". Hell, I could DS 1 Lichtor behind a Land Raider and one shot it. I could win a game with 3 Lichtors in my list and conclude: Lichtors = good. But that tells me nothing about their actual effectiveness. The thing is, there are many other things in our army that fill the exact same role and do it better for fewer points. Play Lichtors, go for it, they are fun and *challenging* compared to our other units. You could win with them in your list, but I promise you it would be because of the strength of the rest of your list, not some imagined synergy your Lichtors provide your army. But the thread, and maybe I'm going way out on a limb here, is asking about their usefulness with the implication that it's in context with the rest of the options in our army. Again, maybe I read in to that too much? PS: A unit that can't get in to assault any earlier than turn 3 is *not* a shock troop by any possible definition of the term.
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Post by barenone on Feb 27, 2013 18:19:23 GMT
Look I think lictors would be very useful against people who do not play against nids much, you can bluff your way into making the enemy think they are something special (which they do look like they are) and then all of a sudden they are popping up all over the place getting the attention of te opposing army, Which is perfect for getting your swarms into place to mow them down, If they do not hit the lictors but go for the swarm instead then the lictors are not to shabby in CC, they are a shock and awe squad made to keep the opponent off balance. That is whats worth the points.
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Post by swarmy on Feb 27, 2013 19:11:27 GMT
I wish more of these threads could be ended by just stating what you said at the end: "These units excel in different roles, but that means taking them to complement each other in the game, rather than choosing one or the other." With a few exceptions, that's the case for most of these threads... Hey Swarmy, if you like lictors, and they are working for you, cool. Use them. But 'different roles' is not a reason. I could make that same statement about Pyrovores, or about a 430pt HT, or a number of other bad choices. Hey, I play with OOE occasionally because I think it is fun. He is overcosted and definitely a sub optimal choice....but I don't try and claim it is because he fills a 'different role' Can you come up with 3 situations where lictors would have been a better option than yealers? Heck, even Shrikes are usually a better choice. It wasn't a case of this *or* that, it was a case of this *and* that...The point was when coupled with other reserves, and in the case of things like mawlocs controllable reserves, they can act as a multiplier. Albeit they are expensive and the rest of the list has to be backed up well to keep target saturation high. The combination of those 3 units I mentioned earlier does wonders for longfang spam for example. Clumps of marines buried behind an aegis line aren't too fond of that either depending on terrain placement. Tau hate that trio...but really tau are the easiest to dismantle and eat. It's a not much of an argument to say because unit A cost X, does C, and unit B cost Y, does D, unit B is inexorably terrible and should be flushed down the nearest toilet ASAP (except the pyrovore, that was inexcusable Cruddace ). Just because another unit is more competitively priced points-wise and has the potential to kill a few more models (in an empty field, in a vacuum, with no other variables) doesn't make another unit a "never take." I was just pointing out that it isn't a lost cause unit like the pyrovore and can actually pull it's weight on the field when properly used. To be clear, I'm not parading through the streets with a "Use lictors!" banner. Hell, they won't even work for most people without a list built around maximizing reserves. If you play solely with flyer spamming WAAC, double-cheese-filled, "I'm not here to make friends" players then you'll obviously not have the luxury of doing much outside of *the* tyranid net-list.
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Post by ZergLord on Feb 27, 2013 19:16:31 GMT
I am still waiting for that list. I wish more of these threads could be ended by just stating what you said at the end: "These units excel in different roles, but that means taking them to complement each other in the game, rather than choosing one or the other." I don't, because that is one of the most generic, vague and useless statements ever. You can apply that for every (bad) unit ever made. Including: "Close Combat Carnifexes are good if used properly." "Space Marine Scouts are good, you just don't know how to use them." "The right question to be answered isn't whether Dark Eldar Mandrakes are useful, but when and where are they useful. We know they're useful when you need a unit with their particular blend of rules, characteristics, and points to compliment the other units in an army. Which, I think, is why so many people have such a low opinion of the unit, because they don't understand the armies that Mandrakes enhanced, and typically just swap them into armies that Mandrakes do not enhance, and so their experience is naturally negative - using the wrong tool for the wrong job will tend to make the tool look bad if you're not positioned to consider the purpose and use of the tool within the context of the job." I am sick and tired of theory threads, if you're saying that a mediocre or bad unit is good then prove it. You don't need to win first place on a tournament with 9 Lictors, just post a list and do a couple of battle reports demonstrating that Lictors are valuable. This could lead to a discussion on how to improve the list and the tactics, making them more effective and could possibly make more people wanting to use Lictors. That's way better than just posting a theory without proof to back it up. swarmy, I'm sorry that you don't like that Nids have succumbed to more or less one list, but that's the way it goes when your codex is old or\and written poorly. Do you actually think that people are too stupid, desperate to win or lazy to make up new interesting lists or tactics? Because truly competitive people love having more than 1 viable list, especially if they play differently. The fact of the matter is that there are no options left for Tyranid players. Most of the stuff is flawed in some way and that's why most of the Nid stuff isn't used (or used consistently). There are facts why bad units are bad, good units are good and mediocre units are mediocre. I don't ignore those facts. Could you look at me in the eyes and tell me with a strait face that Lictors are equal to Yealers, who for a bit more points have same or better stats, don't care for instant kill attacks, and assault on turn they arrive?
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Post by swarmy on Feb 27, 2013 19:55:01 GMT
I am still waiting for that list. I wish more of these threads could be ended by just stating what you said at the end: "These units excel in different roles, but that means taking them to complement each other in the game, rather than choosing one or the other." I don't, because that is one of the most generic, vague and useless statements ever. You can apply that for every (bad) unit ever made. Including: "Close Combat Carnifexes are good if used properly." "Space Marine Scouts are good, you just don't know how to use them." "The right question to be answered isn't whether Dark Eldar Mandrakes are useful, but when and where are they useful. We know they're useful when you need a unit with their particular blend of rules, characteristics, and points to compliment the other units in an army. Which, I think, is why so many people have such a low opinion of the unit, because they don't understand the armies that Mandrakes enhanced, and typically just swap them into armies that Mandrakes do not enhance, and so their experience is naturally negative - using the wrong tool for the wrong job will tend to make the tool look bad if you're not positioned to consider the purpose and use of the tool within the context of the job." I am sick and tired of theory threads, if you're saying that a mediocre or bad unit is good then prove it. You don't need to win first place on a tournament with 9 Lictors, just post a list and do a couple of battle reports demonstrating that Lictors are valuable. This could lead to a discussion on how to improve the list and the tactics, making them more effective and could possibly make more people wanting to use Lictors. That's way better than just posting a theory without proof to back it up. swarmy, I'm sorry that you don't like that Nids have succumbed to more or less one list, but that's the way it goes when your codex is old or\and written poorly. Do you actually think that people are too stupid, desperate to win or lazy to make up new interesting lists or tactics? Because truly competitive people love having more than 1 viable list, especially if they play differently. The fact of the matter is that there are no options left for Tyranid players. Most of the stuff is flawed in some way and that's why most of the Nid stuff isn't used (or used consistently). There are facts why bad units are bad, good units are good and mediocre units are mediocre. I don't ignore those facts. Could you look at me in the eyes and tell me with a strait face that Lictors are equal to Yealers, who for a bit more points have same or better stats, don't care for instant kill attacks, and assault on turn they arrive? Sure thing, once my escalation league is back up to 1500 points I'll work some in for better or worse. I'll consider it a challenge. We are at 1250 right now and it's hard to fit them in with my current list. Also, again, lictors are not yealers. I haven't once said take one over the other. If you go into it expecting the exact same results and functionality out of lictors then you will obviously be disappointed.
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Post by gigasnail on Feb 27, 2013 20:15:09 GMT
...which is exactly the point. they have uses but are overcosted and mediocre for what they do and are outshined by better units in almost everything they do.
i *do* like the idea of precision dropping them behind your own first wave to shore up an assult the following turn. i'd still rather use yealers for it though; you can do nearly the same thing with them. predicting where your opponent is going to place a heavy weapons team/longfang squad isn't difficult.
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Post by nurglitch on Feb 27, 2013 21:01:05 GMT
zerglord:
Proof generally requires a mutually agreed upon set of assumptions according to which said proof can be judged valid or not. As a rule it's better to go from such a general set of assumptions, how to build army according to the parameters of the game, than to start with specifics such as which units to take, than it is to start from specifics and argue about whether any particular assigned value (good/bad/etc) is valid. Without a coherent theory to organize it, evidence such as battle reports is worthless.
On the other hand, for whatever reason, people tend to ask "Is X good?" and rely on circumstantial evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, rather than establishing common principles first. You say there are facts as to why some units are good and some units are bad, but without In other words, an army list won't prove anything if we lack an objective (or at least inter-subjective) metric to measure it by, and where such a metric exists such army lists are redundant. I mean, I tend to get stupidly lucky in games. Posting my battle reports would do nothing except beg the question of how much success is due to luck and how much success is due to the tactics I've employed.
I think it's worth pointing out that my goal here isn't to get more people to play Lictors. I don't gain anything by getting people to use Lictors. They won't suck my ovipositor just because I point out that they're useful. I don't play with anyone on these boards, or receive royalties from GW. I do, however, like to read these boards, and prefer seeing detailed technical analysis of the nuts and bolts of the game, and the Tyranid army, to reading the value judgements that other posters make without showing their work, how they move from the army list, profiles, and rules to "Unit A sucks, taking unit A makes the legally missing Jesus cry!"
Yes, I recognize the irony in that statement when you believe that posting army lists is showing your work. So, with that in mind, I'll post an army list for whatever that's worth. It's 1250pts to play in a 1250pt tournament where the missions are out of the book, the terrain is preset with a bastion-sized/shaped ruin in the center of the board, and the Relic mission doesn't allow a unit to move more than 6" per turn without dropping the Relic. No mysterious objectives or terrain.
HQ: Tervigon w/Catalyst ELITES: Lictor Brood (x3) TROOPS: Genestealer Brood (x10) TROOPS: Genestealer Brood (x10) TROOPS: Genestealer Brood (x10) TROOPS: Warrior Brood (x3) w/Deathspitters, Toxin Sacs, Barbed Strangler TROOPS: Warrior Brood (x3) w/Deathspitters, Toxin Sacs, Barbed Strangler FAST ATTACK: Gargoyle Brood (x15) w/Adrenal Glands FAST ATTACK: Gargoyle Brood (x15) w/Adrenal Glands
I should post a picture.
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Post by Space is pretty big on Feb 27, 2013 22:16:46 GMT
Space is pretty big: All of the units in the Tyranid Elite slot are specialists; it's why they don't have upgrades and options. No, no they are not. Hive Guard, Thropes, and Yummies have many purposes, applications, and valid targets. Hive guards can threaten tanks and mid to long range, tanks at short range, specialty units, TEq units, MEq units, can provide covering fire, combat support due to their high toughness and useful strength, and can contest forward objective or defend backfield objectives. In other words they are a threat to every unit in the game except Land raiders, and swarms (the second of which is not really a threat to 'Nids in general.) Thropes can do all of the above AND are a threat to land raiders and minor swarms, though they trade dependability. Yummies are a threat to, well, everything in or near cover, with the exception of land raiders.
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Post by coredump on Feb 27, 2013 23:42:34 GMT
It wasn't a case of this *or* that, It is always a case of this or that. We have limited points and FOC slots. You can't take everything. there is always a trade off. In this case it is even more explicit, since they are both elites. You can either take lictors, or a unit of yealers. Or in your specific case, you can take lictors and yealers, or yealers and yealers. Every time you pick lictors is it a choice between lictors *or* yealers. (And other things also, but always at least yealers. Yep the one thing that only lictors can do, is guide DS units. (Funny that nurglitch completely dismissed their one unique ability) But even that has some severe drawbacks. Either you use one lictor, which is easy to kill, or you invest 200pts to try and target a mawloc shot. And the enemy gets a turn to move away from the 6" radius of the Lictor. But yes, if you wanted to run a list heavy on mawlocs and lictors... I could see that. Really? Compare that to using 2-3 units of yealers. dude, don't pull a Nurglitch, don't start hiding behind theoretical possible what-if scenarios.... No one is talking in a vacuum, or about empty fields. I have asked both of you (though Nurglitch doesn't have the guts to respond to me anyway...) to give an example of when you are better off with Lictors instead of Yealers. Long fangs? Yealers Aegis line? Yealers. Yeah dropping a mawloc would be fun, but I don't find it likely to keep a lictor alive 6" from an aegis line full of marines. Again, anything can be used. And if you are careful about it, it may even be worthwhile. But that doesn't make it a good unit. I use Tfexes because I like to, I use OOE because I like to. And I try and work my list and tactics to make them be a benefit to my list. But that doesn't make them a good choice. Heck, a pyrovore can easily be worth it against Xenos armies, or against a bastien. Doesn't make it a better choice than Hive guard...
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