|
Post by ZergLord on Feb 26, 2013 16:49:07 GMT
Who's defending Lictors?. There's plenty of point to taking Lictors, particularly if what you want to do is win games. Also: So why don't you post a list where they could be brought to a good use?
|
|
|
Post by nurglitch on Feb 26, 2013 17:15:46 GMT
Why, what would that prove? Unless we're on the same page when it comes to basic principles of gameplay pointing out a list and saying: "See, this is good!" is about as useful as pointing to the Lictor and saying: "See, this is useful!" We should probably establish what game we're playing before deciding to move the goalposts.
I mean, this discussion can go one of three ways:
1. We agree on basic principles, and following those principles we deduced which statements can be proven. 2. We disagree on basic principles, and while I say "Up is good", you say "Down is bad" and everyone's time is wasted. 3. We shrug and get on with our lives content while someone may disagree with us, it's not worth our time to find out if we've made a mistake that we can learn from, or if someone else has made a mistake we can help them learn from.
I'd like to go with #1, but plenty of people have managed to post in this thread voting for #2 & #3, and good for them for having an opinion.
|
|
|
Post by Space is pretty big on Feb 26, 2013 17:19:46 GMT
Who's defending Lictors?. Also: So why don't you post a list where they could be brought to a good use? Heh, I use to think Zerglord was a nutter for defending lictors, so when even HE throws in the towel, you know the poor buggers have a problem. Really the thing to understand about the Lictor hate is that they have been progressively nerfed every edition and codex. It isn't subtle things either like an extra point cost here, or a slight power reduction to Rapid Fire there. One by one, their abilities have been chipped away, in some cases before they were even released. They use to be an effective Spec Ops unit at the end of 3rd and start of 4th. Now they're basically over prices spore mines. Why, what would that prove? It would prove that you're not just adhering to an inane and easy to dismantle argument for the sake of saving face on the internet... One can have the opinion that the earth is flat... doesn't make it a valid one.
|
|
|
Post by nurglitch on Feb 26, 2013 20:13:27 GMT
Okay, so what are the rules governing validity here, besides your expert judgement?
|
|
|
Post by Space is pretty big on Feb 26, 2013 21:08:21 GMT
Okay, so what are the rules governing validity here, besides your expert judgement? Don't need mine, but hey, if you can get me ten main tournaments (adepticon for example) who's first, second or third place players were tyranid players who used Lictors, I'm happy to have my mind changed.
|
|
|
Post by coredump on Feb 26, 2013 21:59:46 GMT
ZergLord: Dang man, I was going to make that exact same post,with the same quotes..... It would prove that you're not just adhering to an inane and easy to dismantle argument for the sake of saving face on the internet... One can have the opinion that the earth is flat... doesn't make it a valid one. Well first we would have to discuss if we are on the same page as to what 'flat' means, then establish which Earth we are talking about, I mean it can really go three ways.... Okay, so what are the rules governing validity here, besides your expert judgement? Anybody willing to guess how long Nurglitch is going to banter and backpedal to avoid actually supporting his assertions with something *concrete*?? "because they don't understand the armies that Lictors enhanced" Since we simply 'don't understand', and apparently you do... are you going to educate us with an actual example? Or are you going to keep stalling?
|
|
|
Post by gigasnail on Feb 27, 2013 0:32:29 GMT
i see no one's learned yet.
|
|
|
Post by Space is pretty big on Feb 27, 2013 0:55:17 GMT
i see no one's learned yet. Oh I know better, I just like causing trouble. I mean, have you seen my avatar?
|
|
|
Post by 0800hell on Feb 27, 2013 2:47:59 GMT
well this entire post has just turned into a troll.... lol But back on topic lictors can be good if they are used right and is you take a single one. Normally i would never take one. BUT what i do use them for is to guide mycetic spore armies, mawlocks and trygons. also they can be good for taking in isolated heavy weapons teams (longfangs,devastators imperial guard heavy weapon teams) expecially the latter as they can be instant deathed and evn if the supporting guardsmen charge in then the lictor can strike first and kill a couple with 3s to hit and 2s to wound then they will struggle to damage thel ictor so it has disrupted a fair bit of there backline. Also deathleaper is great against armys that have a model which allows the entire army to use his leadership. There is a space marine character(i cant remember who) that someone in me local gaming group runs who FORCES his army to use his ld so i made him LD7 and Doom of' malantaied his terminators and maxed out telepathy
|
|
|
Post by grarik on Feb 27, 2013 5:00:22 GMT
well this entire post has just turned into a troll.... lol But back on topic lictors can be good if they are used right and is you take a single one. Normally i would never take one. BUT what i do use them for is to guide mycetic spore armies, mawlocks and trygons. also they can be good for taking in isolated heavy weapons teams (longfangs,devastators imperial guard heavy weapon teams) expecially the latter as they can be instant deathed and evn if the supporting guardsmen charge in then the lictor can strike first and kill a couple with 3s to hit and 2s to wound then they will struggle to damage thel ictor so it has disrupted a fair bit of there backline. Also deathleaper is great against armys that have a model which allows the entire army to use his leadership. There is a space marine character(i cant remember who) that someone in me local gaming group runs who FORCES his army to use his ld so i made him LD7 and Doom of' malantaied his terminators and maxed out telepathy They're not actually all that good at guiding anymore in my experience. From my understanding of the rule, the lictor has to be on the table for units to use its pheremone trail. Since things come onto the table on a 3+ (2+ with hive commander/swarmlord) the majority of units will arrive at the same time, so they can't benefit. What codex were they using? because I'm not sure I know of a marine character that forces the army to use his leadership. Then again, I don't have much experience against marines not using the space marine and blood angels codex, so I suppose it could be from one of those.
|
|
|
Post by chuckles on Feb 27, 2013 7:00:43 GMT
Grarik's pretty much bang on there. Furthermore a sizeable chunk of our Deep Striking units don't really need guidance since all but 1 of them that I can think of (Raveners) automatically reduces scatter distance to avoid most DS Mishaps.
|
|
|
Post by nurglitch on Feb 27, 2013 14:07:08 GMT
I think it's probably best not to worry about the Pheromone Trail at all. It's nice when it happens, but it's just an occasional bonus. Use them as assassins or shock-assault, and your only problem will be trying to find metal versions of the model. Mine are plastic conversions of Warriors, but that's not everyone's cut of tea.
|
|
|
Post by chuckles on Feb 27, 2013 14:09:05 GMT
Assassins? I think not. Deathleaper might cut it thanks to his superior rending, but ordinary lictors are assassins the way Sarah Palin is a world-class intellect. Similar problems apply to using them for shock assault. Literally the only thing they have going for them if we're discounting Pheremone Trail is having I6 and assault grenades, but there's precious little hay you can make out of that.
|
|
|
Post by nurglitch on Feb 27, 2013 14:21:17 GMT
There's plenty of point to taking Lictors, particularly if what you want to do is win games. If you're expecting them to be a deathstar to win the game for you, though, you're bound for disappointment. Some reasons to include Lictors include 1. The opportunity to place 2-6 S6 Rending shots behind just about any vehicle. With the advent of hull points, and the loss of the -1 penalty to penetration rules by AP-, the Flesh Hooks saw an increase in effectiveness. Notably, shooting attacks with Rending have retained the AP2 from 5th edition. 2. The opportunity to deploy I6 Assault Grenades, or the equivalent in Flesh Hooks, to lock down enemy units for a follow-up charge next turn. That not only protects another Tyranid unit from a phase of shooting, but also from overwatch and the I1 penalty. Thanks to Move Through Cover and Fleet they're good at moving around the battlefield, weathering regular fire and overwatch fairly well so long as you can keep them in area terrain for the stealth save. Getting out of combat, presuming the Lictors survive (and they do tend to get beaten to death by IG), is easy with I6 Hit & Run. Between 4 and 12 WS6 S6 Rending attacks can make a hash out of all sorts of things that other Tyranids tend to bounce off either because they don't have a high enough strength to reliably wound, or their initiative is too low (see the intiative penalty). 3. Contest objectives. They're fast, and get to land anywhere. Hold them back, and charge in after other Tyranid units to help out with counter-charges, and to help mop up enemy units faster, and then move on using Hit & Run. Oh, and the whole "Go to ground in enemy player's turn, go Fearless in your own turn" thing is cool with them too. The question is, why would you wan to spend 65-195pts to do this? Essentially because #1 & #2 are exclusive options to be taken depending on your opponent's army and #2 is what you'll want to do with them most of the time. Which is to say use turn 2 to set up turn 3, either by shooting, or biding your time. When something really has to die, use #1, and when you need the charge bonuses, make sure that you set up in cover and away from Ignore Cover units. Sometimes it's honestly best to deploy them in the umbra of a Venomthrope, or behind a unit of Tyranids, where position takes priority over cover save. Sometimes you deploy for #1 or #2, but it works out as #3. The #3 is kind of a back-up plan. The trick, insofar as I've found one, is to resist the urge to throw them down in the hope of killing something that doesn't really need to die, or going for the turn 3 charge for broke when they can also act to bolster Tyranids that charged on turn 2. And most of all, you need to build the rest of the army so that you have target saturation so that they're not the only unit threatening the enemy on turn 2, and not the only one in range of enemy short ranged weapons. They work well with Mycetic Spores, Genestealers, Hive Commander, and so on precisely because they become a redundant part of the army getting in the enemy's face rather than a single point of failure attempting a pin-point strike.
|
|
|
Post by chuckles on Feb 27, 2013 14:45:35 GMT
Yes I saw your post the first time. None of it changes, or even addresses, the fact that a Lictor's statline and equipment doesn't really amount to anything terribly scary. Unless you're sending them to "assassinate" tough targets like support batteries and heavy weapons platoons, in which case I'd say there are still considerably more effective options, such as Ymgarl stealers who can actually charge said targets before they can a) run away or b) shoot the lictor to death.
I6 assault grenades don't "lock down" enemy units for a follow-up charge. If you want to lock an enemy unit in place charge them with gaunts, gargoyles or rippers, preferably with feel no pain from catalyst or endurance. If you're locking an enemy down you don't care how much damage your first charge does, all you care about is whether both units can survive two rounds of combat without breaking or getting destroyed. Lictors fail on both of these counts.
And how are Lictors fast, exactly? They look to me to be the exact same speed as everything else in the game that isn't slow & purposeful.
|
|