Help me out real quick with law class?

[Dro]

It's just a quick 8 question survey, it's all about unemployment insurance an if recipients should surrender to mandatory drug tests.

www.surveymonkey.com/s/8QWFQQ8

[t⊗theark]

Done, might as well post my views here too.

As for would there be drug tests for fiscal state assistance, I believe welfare should have less focus on of direct fiscal support and more providing services to aid education/obtaining employment and to make sure people are fed and sheltered. Direct fiscal assistance should be reduced but recreational drug use should not be involved with any criteria in receiving it. If you provide more direct support and services it would be more difficult to direct welfare towards a drug addiction. These services could also include assisting people with said drug habits.

Also, I think this may put people in danger of not getting needed assistance, THC stays in the body for some time after consumption. If that person had consumed that product just before, say, they were laid off and their house were foreclosed by some strike of bad luck, they would be denied assistance if negative THC results were a criterion. Further more, which recreational drugs should be considered? Tobacco? MDMA? Cannabis? Alcohol? What arbitrary place in the sand do we draw the line?

[Psychichobo]

Done. I pretty much agree with totheark, more or less.

[Geneva]

On top of everything totheark said, I can't see how cutting the last rope for someone struggling with drug dependency could help the situation in any sense. The potential repercussions in the form of depression and thus increased dependency and resorting to crime doesn't exactly make this look like a positive step. Plus, the cost to set this up, even for random checks would likely be quite substantial. It's also a tad undignified to have to be subjected to tests to prove you're not an addict just to avail of financial aid in times of crisis. I feel it may only deepen the social stigma surrounding such aid and drive people who might truly need it away due to matters of pride.

So, it's a big 'no' from me. I feel the money would be better spent on preventing fraud than implementing this sort of thing anyway.

[lictor534]

I agree with the above points. I believe it would be a waste of time and money, drug tests not only are easy to work around and get past (using someone elses/fake urine etc) but are expensive (depending on the type) and not even that incredibly accurate. Theres many things that can falsely flag for positive on these tests which i won't go into here but can easily enough be googled. Denying someone assistance due to failing a drug test would mean they would most likely become more in debt/poverty stricken and may end up out of a house and on the street if they weren't already. Thus increasing the poverty in the country..and I was under the impression that the whole point of government assistance was to fight poverty?

[Yuno]

Well since we are stating opinions also, I guess it would be good to throw in mine.

I Agree that we should be aiming for more education, employment and even programs to help with habit/health issues of any and every kind, that said...I am for drug testing.

I know that drugs stay in the system pretty well, but then one shouldn't be doing those drugs in the first place. If someone has done those drugs, I am MORE than in favor of granting them benefits assuming they are willing to make a true effort to get help and stop their habit. I am totally against someone on welfare continuing to do drugs of ANY recreational variety while I and my fellow tax payers bankroll their existence. It turns out, all drugs are fairly expensive, and one way to kill two birds with one stone is if they use that money to not buy drugs and instead buy actual necessities to human existence.

And if this sounds cold, well here it goes. If you aren't working, if you are doing drugs, and you aren't disabled from the neck down or so batshit crazy you can't function, then guess what, perhaps it would be best if you just rolled over and died, seeing as you are unlikely to contribute anything of value to the whole of the narrative of humanity. (Sorry, breathing doesn't really count for me.) And yeah, maybe a few drug addicts who don't work are really exceptional poets or philosophers, but if they aren't getting their message out there, Doritos and an afternoon working the couch while high isn't anything.

Furthermore, I might seem "too conservative" or "not human" but let me just say for the record. I was born/diagnosed with Spina Bifida from day one. I work two jobs, one on my feet all day, the other doing more officey work. I come home from my job lifting groceries and my feet are so sore I can barely walk, I'm probably increasing my chances of ending up in a wheelchair well before my time every time I go into work. I have more medical issues, aches and pains, and problems standing than almost anyone forum goers will ever meet...I've been working like this since I was 15. I don't do drugs for my pain. I'm not on medical assistance. I go to college and I work this hard so that I can go to college in hopes of getting a job that isn't so rough on my body. I had to pass a drug test so that I could bust my hump for drug addicts and single mothers. (My hump, that could easily get on medical assistance and any other government program in the blink of an eye.) They can't work at getting off assistance, they can't pass a drug test, and they can't quit drugs if they are on them? As someone who has relearned to walk 3 times, and survived the mother of all bad back operations so that she could work in a grocery store, I am not only unconvinced, I am insulted by the sheer foolish, selfish, and ultimately poor nature on display there. I also think maybe I should go on assistance and help milk the system dry faster, that way when it crumbles under the weight of people who actually need help, and drug addicts I'll be fine and dandy to go back to work...the drug addicts on the other hand may be in for a bit of a ride.

[swarm492]

^ that was put very well, my response is a bit more blunt. I do not care, i understand there are cases where people do need these programs, but there should absolutely be drug testing due to all of the fraud. They don't want to work and want to milk "X" government program? Let them die in the streets. Personally I think it should be treated as a loan you need to pay back, either with money or labor. You'd see them getting jobs real quick.

[Geneva]

Feb 21, 2013 1:59:17 GMT swarm492 said:

^ that was put very well, my response is a bit more blunt. I do not care, i understand there are cases where people do need these programs, but there should absolutely be drug testing due to all of the fraud. They don't want to work and want to milk "X" government program? Let them die in the streets. Personally I think it should be treated as a loan you need to pay back, either with money or labor. You'd see them getting jobs real quick.

Andrew Ryan? I thought you died in Rapture.

[swarm492]

HAH, nope I'am not that man. Just someone that had a negative view due to home issues growing up, someone that didn't end up passing high school, then went back and got a G.E.D, got a job, paid for my own place and car, and over time while saving every penny was able to pay for my own school. I now have a graduate degree and work as a technical analyst all by the ripe old age of 26. Don't want to work? Don't think there's opportunity and its someone else's fault? It's your choice, and your life. Please go die in the streets and stop wasting my tax dollars you don't deserve.

[Yuno]

^ Something along these lines just a bit different spin on why...Although I also admit my family was quite poor when I was growing up, and my mom refused to go on government assistance even when it would have made things much easier on her (considering she was trying to raise me and my brother and I had so many huge medical issues). Today I live in a three floor house with my mother and father because my mother worked harder than anyone probably should to go to school to be a nurse and then went back for a masters and certifications so that she could be paid very very well and take care of her family...people think because I go to a very good school that I don't know what it is like to live barely making ends meat....and honestly, no I don't know the poverty line, but that's only because my mom worked damn hard to make certain I never would have to. God bless her for it, I hope someday I can give children of my own such a life and example.

[Geneva]

Feb 22, 2013 0:55:15 GMT swarm492 said:

Don't want to work? Don't think there's opportunity and its someone else's fault? It's your choice, and your life. Please go die in the streets and stop wasting my tax dollars you don't deserve.

No offense mate, and please don't take this as a personal attack on your character as what I'm about to say is probably going to sound more incendiary than intended, but that's a load of bollocks. It's not always "your choice" to be unemployed. There are plenty of people on welfare who don't want to be there. As we're sharing personal stories, my father was on welfare for five months between jobs when I was younger. He needed to be there to feed three children and keep a roof over our heads. To this day he still swears that standing in line for welfare is the worst feeling he's ever had in his life. It's a personal admittance that you've hit the bottom of the barrel.

Now I know there are people who willingly stay there. I've met a few in my time. But of those I've met, a good few had children. Should their children die in the streets too? Also, I don't see how a minority of those on financial aid should be considered the poster boys for everyone who avails of it. People are not inherently lazy. People want to do something with themselves. To make something of themselves. Nobody enjoys being at the bottom of the social ladder. Not even the people who show little incentive to leave. It's far from a black and white scenario and even if we are to simplify the situation beyond what it warrants the conclusion still comes to something far from "People are lazy."

Also, consider what happens when people are left out to hang. You see a massive increase in poverty and, inevitably, crime. Drug dealing, muggings, burglary, these are the results of what happens when society removes the bottom floor and the resulting animosity and class division also leads to self-imposed justification. "Rich people don't care about me, so why should I care about them." There was a famous case of this in an area in Ireland known as Hollyfield which bred one of the most infamous criminal rings in the nation's history under a man called Martin "The General" Cahill when lack of financial aid led to people supporting criminals as a way of getting by as well as getting their own against the system. This continued until government intervention supplied financial support for the people there. The result: crime plummeted and people started to take responsibility for their lives and eventually, started working again once infrastructure resettled.

Animosity towards people on financial aid rarely helps the situation. In fact it usually only results in making it worse.

@op:

Not sure if it can help with your assignment (you might be able to back trace sources at least) but coincidence would have that Cracked just covered this exact topic in one of their articles today. I'll post a link for you below:

Here!

[Psychichobo]

I love debates like these. Thinking is good!


Now, I understand the current animosity towards the skivers and scroungers who just leech off the state, but at the same time a lot of strong right wing policies just don't work. We need to do something to stop people just being parasites, that's true. But hardline policies just push people away further - the idea is to make them sorry, but the result is breeding more animosity on their part. The ones who genuinely don't care that they're abusing the system will just get worse. They'll continue to do what they can to scrounge, their concern will focus further selfishly inwards and the people who really need the help will just suffer.

The main problem is with attitudes and culture in society - people need to grow up not getting their values and morals from shows that focus on cruelty and spite such as the X-factor, Eastenders and all that. They need a world where kindness is encouraged and bad behaviour is dealt with early, and where vilification isn't present in everyday life.

I realise I probably sound a bit idealistic here - I am tired, I've just worked 14 days in a row, nearly all of which were morning shifts, so I'll probably go into more detail some other time. But I just feel that many people nowadays just lack common kindness, and that's why people end up such painful and self-destructive states.

[swarm492]

Feb 22, 2013 18:35:12 GMT Geneva said:

Feb 22, 2013 0:55:15 GMT swarm492 said:

Don't want to work? Don't think there's opportunity and its someone else's fault? It's your choice, and your life. Please go die in the streets and stop wasting my tax dollars you don't deserve.

No offense mate, and please don't take this as a personal attack on your character as what I'm about to say is probably going to sound more incendiary than intended, but that's a load of bollocks. It's not always "your choice" to be unemployed. There are plenty of people on welfare who don't want to be there. As we're sharing personal stories, my father was on welfare for five months between jobs when I was younger. He needed to be there to feed three children and keep a roof over our heads. To this day he still swears that standing in line for welfare is the worst feeling he's ever had in his life. It's a personal admittance that you've hit the bottom of the barrel.

Now I know there are people who willingly stay there. I've met a few in my time. But of those I've met, a good few had children. Should their children die in the streets too? Also, I don't see how a minority of those on financial aid should be considered the poster boys for everyone who avails of it. People are not inherently lazy. People want to do something with themselves. To make something of themselves. Nobody enjoys being at the bottom of the social ladder. Not even the people who show little incentive to leave. It's far from a black and white scenario and even if we are to simplify the situation beyond what it warrants the conclusion still comes to something far from "People are lazy."

Also, consider what happens when people are left out to hang. You see a massive increase in poverty and, inevitably, crime. Drug dealing, muggings, burglary, these are the results of what happens when society removes the bottom floor and the resulting animosity and class division also leads to self-imposed justification. "Rich people don't care about me, so why should I care about them." There was a famous case of this in an area in Ireland known as Hollyfield which bred one of the most infamous criminal rings in the nation's history under a man called Martin "The General" Cahill when lack of financial aid led to people supporting criminals as a way of getting by as well as getting their own against the system. This continued until government intervention supplied financial support for the people there. The result: crime plummeted and people started to take responsibility for their lives and eventually, started working again once infrastructure resettled.

Animosity towards people on financial aid rarely helps the situation. In fact it usually only results in making it worse.

@op:

Not sure if it can help with your assignment (you might be able to back trace sources at least) but coincidence would have that Cracked just covered this exact topic in one of their articles today. I'll post a link for you below:

Here!

I have no animosity against people that use social services, I know allot of people that have, I myself used unemployment when my company's client decided not to renew our contract and we were all let go, however to say that people are not inherently lazy to me means you've just never met them. You describe a local mindset that develops into its own culture of rich vs poor, and we have that here as well..several generations of it. And trust me from personal experience it cultures a mindset, cultures a..new standard of living that is living off of social services. My mind starts pulling itself is a bunch of different directions regarding this because it makes me so sick. Because were all paying for them to do nothing but sit on their @ssess and pump out illegitimate children that grow up on a system designed to help while its distorted into something it was never suppose to be, the only system they have ever know and grow up into the next generations hood rat.
And as far as options or opportunity goes? there always is one, I don't know how it works over there but over here there always is one, its just if a person thinks its worth pursuing. It's one foot in front of another, and if..IF for some reason there really isn't one, there's no possibility for work or school but your determined, then join the military. You will have a job, pay, options for school, over here I know there's a cap but it will pay for just about all of your school expenses. And you will get living assistance while you have a full time student status. They make it so much easier to help someone build themselves
I'm going to leave you guys with this. Don't take me for someone that spits on the poor and can not relate. I have fallen into the red while working full time, and struck deals with my landlord where I would re-tile his apartments bathrooms and kitchens in exchange for cutting me a break that month or I wouldn't be able to keep my apartment. But more importantly don't think of me as someone that thinks these programs should just go away, they are there for a reason, an allot of good hardworking people need them from time to time. Its the filth, the naturally lazy that milk the system dry that make me shake my head, and don't ever lie to my face and say there isn't anything you can do about your current situation.
If you were to ask me a few years a go what I thought about getting to where I am right and do I think its a possibility? I'd say your full of @%#$ and no its not a possibility, even now I'm shocked that I did do what I did, I never really thought I'd make it collage let alone pass it. Everyone I know I tell them to go to school, I give them contact information for the people I know from school, I do my best to drill it into their skulls because it will be one of the best things they can do to help themselves.
And I hope that all of you understand that as well and take advantage of the opportunities it provides