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Post by roxismcha on Feb 2, 2013 9:55:24 GMT
So I am new to tyranids and am trying to put together a list about 1500-2000 to play with my friends. I have played other wargames and am fairly familiar with 40K rules. I noticed in 6th edition Assualt has been nerfed but I really did enjoy the concept of an assualt army but it seems that is out the window. What I am looking to build is what I have heard reffered to as Nidzilla. This thread is where I got the idea. thetyranidhive.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Tactics&action=display&thread=42040So what would that list look like? I don't want to do Gant spam like at all but I will if I have to. I am at a loss where to start. I love flyrant, and trygon just kinda unsure how to build a giant bug list.
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Post by Macradon on Feb 2, 2013 10:23:33 GMT
A 'Nid-zilla army is just as many toughness 6 wounds as possible. I would recommend some Dakka Fexes (Dual twinlinked devours Carnifexes) in spore pods(That you can make from anything). Buy a lot of the Monstrous Creatures in the store, though they're not cheap. Carnifexes are really good at shooting, but the combat thing ... ws3 is just not that good, even with the str9. A Dakka Fex can easily pop a vehicle, and if you can get it into combat, then it's the points worth, just a shame that Fexes are so overpriced ...
You'll need some Flyrants too(Winged Hive Tyrant), also with twin linked devours. They're great at shooting, and if they can come into cobmat, they'll also kill someone with their smash attacks or just regular attacks.
Get some Ymgarl Genestealers. They're pretty fearsome, as they can assault the turn they come in!. You'll just have to hide them in terrain, and when they come in, they'll batch whatever they can hit.
Just do that.
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Post by Squire on Feb 2, 2013 11:20:32 GMT
You say you don't want to do gant spam- does that mean you don't want tervigons or don't want gaunts at all?
If you didn't want gaunts then I suppose warriors become a decent choice for objective holding. With a lot of scary T6 monstrous creatures on the board a few warriors would slip under the radar. As long as the warriors are armed basically (devourers and scything talons) their biggest weakness is offset by the MC's. Warriors are weak to S8+ shooting but very tough against light firepower, like bolters and lasguns. The MC's will likely draw away the missile launcher and lascannon fire, leaving the warriors free to claim objectives. For 390 points you could have three units of four warriors, armed with devourers and scything talons and a barbed strangler for each unit. That could be a solid troops core for a 1500 point nidzilla army with no tervigons
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Post by roxismcha on Feb 2, 2013 21:38:16 GMT
I appreciate that. Everyone I talked with so far said that without tervigon and a ton of gants you will lose.
I was hoping to do something different then all the nid players I have in my meta. They all run gant spam, with at least 2 tervis some run 3.
i was thinking two flyrants with link devourers 1 or 2 trygons I never thought of DakkaFexes but 2 would be fun Ymgarl Genestealers Zoanthrope or 2
I didn't think of the warrioirs though, or they worth it? Thoughts on hive guards, doom, and Harpies? And Biovores I have a hard on for them lol.
Sorry for the noob questions I am just glad to see some people who arent demanding the use of gant spam for once.
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Post by Bot on Feb 2, 2013 22:40:10 GMT
Nidzilla actually refers to a tyranid build that was quite popular in 4th edition. You pretty much just had to include as many Carnifexes as possible. In 5th edition, the Carnifex were hit by the nerf hammer and that was pretty much the end of Nidzilla. T6 spam or Neozilla as some call them is pretty much the new Nidzilla. Instead of focusing on Fexes, they now focus on getting as much T6 into the list as possible. Depending on your list, Warriors can do okay in a Neozilla list, since your enemy will most likely be focusing on your larger creatures with the weapons that would normally instant kill the warriors. Hive guards are great in "every" list and in a Neozilla list, their T6 becomes a lot more valuable. Also, you will see Tervigons in these lists. You don't have to spam them. But a single Tervigon that you can make a Troop choice will give it quite some attention. Don't try to spam spawn Termagants with it. I know you've already said that you don't want Tervi/Termagant spam list, but a single Tervigon is not spamming them. And spam spawning termagants can never be advised. >NEVER< be advised. Some people might make a list around spamming Termagants in this way, but I tell you, they are far from stable in any way. Only spawn when you actually need the Gaunts. To Shield a unit, to get just that extra fighting power, etc. At least that is my golden rule when playing with Tervigons. Ymgarls are also a great choice. They are not as tough as everything else in a Neozilla list, but considered that Tyranids (Especially Neozilla lists) are very slow, Ymgarls make up for it as a great disruption unit. Go and take out that damn devastator squad. Trygons are also a great unit. Unfortunately, they are usually also the first things to get shut down. Support from them with feel no pain given by Tervigon(s)... If you have any in your list of course. ;P I might add some extra later, but I have to go now.
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Post by infornography on Feb 3, 2013 1:43:54 GMT
What do you mean when you say spam spawning termagants is never advised?
I'd say this forum is roughly divided on the idea of spawning every turn you can and it pretty much comes down to playstyle. I spawn termagants every turn that I can and then immediately run them off toward objectives or march them in front of the momma if more objective holders are not needed. There is no problem with this strategy and in fact I find it works VERY well and consistently well. Yes sometimes one of my two tervigons dries up on turn one, and on rare occasion, both do, but then I know early on how to field my forces to cover objectives. This is not a problem, it is an important aspect of the tactics I employ.
People who say to hold off on spawning are intending them to be late game reinforcements and line breakers. That is a solid strategy as well.
If that is not what you are talking about I don't know what you mean at all.
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Post by gammaxj on Feb 3, 2013 3:04:49 GMT
Just about the whole tervigon thing, I have never fielded one and did very well in 5th, and I am doing good in 6th. Admittedly, it does make it harder to win, and there is a lot less room for strategic errors, but that is why I do it. I tend to field a semi - Nidzilla list, usually a flyrant, 2 carnifexes, and two trygons, and it works pretty well.
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Post by Bot on Feb 3, 2013 3:16:18 GMT
I'm sorry infornography, but I just really think it is a really bad idea to start spawning turn one. First of all... Why would you need Termagants at the start of the game? What are they good for? IMO the Termagants spawned by a Tervigon is nothing but support. So you tell me that you put your objectives in the hand of 8-10 Termagants at the start of the game? By spawning turn one and sending them towards the objectives, you give your opponent a better overview and basically tells him about where he/she should assign his forces in order to beat you. Not only do you do that, but you also restrict the use of those Termagants you send away, by simply sending them away. Now, those termagants you don't send towards objectives, you let run in front of the Terv? For what good? I always thought that Tyranids had to be careful not to cluster up. I mean you don't want anything to slow down an already slow army down. Then at the time you realize that you need the Termagants, those you've already spawned has been blasted to bits, or what is left are standing somewhere useless to the current situation... For not to mention that you probably rolled a double by now and therefore you can't spawn a new unit of Termagants. So why not just spawn when they are needed or you have a feeling that your Tervigon might die soon. A Tervigon should spawn just about the same amount of Termagants mid game as it would at the start of the game. (unless of course you are lucky) As I see it, using the "Turn one spawning tactic" is nothing but shooting yourself in the foot and at the same time being a very unreliable tactic that you really only benefit from if you are lucky not to roll double for the most of the game, or your opponent is bad at the game. Well... at least that is my honest opinion about it. [Edit] I'm glad to hear you are doing good without tervigons, gammaxj. I remember when I didn't use Tervigons and Hive guards myself and I just couldn't understand why people told me that a Tyranid player couldn't win without them. Then I got the models and I have used them ever since. ^^ Ah well...
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Post by infornography on Feb 3, 2013 4:34:24 GMT
Bot, in my experience, the other player has enough to worry about from my turn 2 reserves that they can't focus on wiping out my termagants that are running from cover to cover toward an objective or the ones I started the game with on them. Also you seem to be inferring that only one unit of termagants are being dedicated to each objective, generally I have two for each.
As for not clumping up, you don't get so close that blasts can have a field day, but the terv hands out some rather significant buffs to termagants, they have to be close to use those.
I have found that my enemies generally either waste too much fire on my gants allowing my monstrous creatures and turn 2 reserves to wipe them off the map easily, or they ignore them completely as they are not proving to be a current threat and more are likely to come out anyway. If you make a play for every objective with one or two units of termagants, then you will usually win because your opponent was too busy dealing with the big threats to kill them off. It is surprisingly hard to kill 10 termagants in synapse behind cover.
For my style of gameplay, not spawning termagants every chance you get is leaving units in the box that could get on the field. You act like it is rare for a terv to not dry up over the course of a game, but it happens and frequently. It is not THAT unlikely.
My list utilizes two tervs. One marching up the field and the other outflanking. That gives me good swarm coverage and allows me to put pressure on all of the objectives on the map at once without wasting valuable resources (ie monstrous creatures) to do it. I am not saying this is the only viable strategy, but it is a VERY successful one and should not be dismissed because it isn't what you do.
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Post by ranmafan on Feb 3, 2013 4:35:42 GMT
In my double Tervi lists, I spawn gants from one Tervi to act as a third layer of cover saves if the opponent's first turn of shooting killed more than half my 10-gant moving-wall brood. The second Tervi then spawns gants right in the opponent's face, either from in front (to act as a charge-denial unit against TH/SS Terminators) or behind (so the tervi can join in the battle against weaker models/tac marines). Typically I only start deciding how to capture most objectives with my surviving forces on turn 4.
One way to make full use of Tervigons in a Nidzilla list is to load them up with Psyker powers and roll Biomancy. Once the Fexes pod down (ALWAYS give your Tyrant Hive Commander!!) start buffing them. Either with the Tyrants or Tervis. Or even better - outflank one or both Tervis (outflank the Tervis, THEN drop the Fex pods) so they can buff the fexes immediately upon arrival, then start pumping gants out the next turn.
Well, you don't strictly need Tervis. Dropping 3x Zoanthropes in a spore also works (and provides valuable Synapse backup) - give them all Biomancy powers and buff/debuff away. S3 T3 Marine heroes get slaughtered by 2-3 dakkafexes... combine buffs/debuffs for even more killy goodness - Remember that Enfeeble stacks. A S2 marine squad that cannot wound a Fex (and, depending on their combat tactics/codex, may not even attempt to run away!) or a Terminator squad that can only strike on S4/6 with Thunder Hammers/Powerfists is a major psychological blow to the opponent.
The idea in 6th ed for Nids is 'play smart' - brute force is good, force multipliers on a brute force army is even better!
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Post by infornography on Feb 3, 2013 4:42:10 GMT
One note, per the FAQ having multiple tyrants with hive commander does nothing. Doesn't even let you outflank a second troop. You can only ever outflank a single tervigon. Just a heads up.
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Post by roxismcha on Feb 3, 2013 6:13:00 GMT
Well Like Ranmafan said "play smart" you guys have given me a lot to think about. Even hell new uses for Tervis. A lot of player in my area just spawn gants, and rush about with them. Very well lame in my opinion.
I love the ideas of debuffs. I am a huge fan Shenanigans. Like when I read the Leaper abilities to pretty much vanish and reappear I was like I must play him! But soon learned not a good idea. But yea so what about a nid list with debuff making our dakkafex, flyrant, and warriors a solid fist to the opponents jaw.
So a Theoretical list from a player not so experienced
Flyrant X2 Dakkafex X2 Trygon
Warriors 3 man units X2 Ygmarl Genestealer Zoanthropes X3
Something like this where fexs, zoanthropes and possibly trygon get dropped in.
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Post by infornography on Feb 3, 2013 21:12:36 GMT
In that list, if you go cheap with the warriors, they might work out as backfield objective holders as long as they don't pose too much of a threat to the enemy encouraging them to wipe them out sooner rather than later.
I'd say the biggest problem this list faces is a lack of objective holders. You are basically 2 moderately fragile units away from losing a high percentage of games.
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Post by Squire on Feb 4, 2013 10:25:26 GMT
I can't really understand the point of not spawning gaunts on T1. For me half the appeal of tervigons is the chance of them having a lucky game and spawning a few dozen gaunts. Might as well try to get the most you can out of them. If you were spawning a unit that you don't want the enemy to shoot at I could see the point- it may be wise to keep them safe until they can shoot or charge, but most players will already have gaunts on the table. If the enemy wants to kill gaunts from across the board they can just shoot your other unit/s. Also I don't see the reason for waiting until you get closer to an objective. A tervigon moves no faster than a termagant, so just spawn the termgants and have them cover the distance themselves I think I'm probably missing something (maybe something obvious) but I can't think what it is. I'd worry about an opponent killing a tervigon before it's had a chance to spawn, or before it's dried up. The way I see it a tervigon is at its most valuable while it still has the potential to spawn, then loses a lot of value once it hits that double. I'd far sooner see the tervigon killed after it stops spawning gaunts than before Well Like Ranmafan said "play smart" you guys have given me a lot to think about. Even hell new uses for Tervis. A lot of player in my area just spawn gants, and rush about with them. Very well lame in my opinion. I love the ideas of debuffs. I am a huge fan Shenanigans. Like when I read the Leaper abilities to pretty much vanish and reappear I was like I must play him! But soon learned not a good idea. But yea so what about a nid list with debuff making our dakkafex, flyrant, and warriors a solid fist to the opponents jaw. So a Theoretical list from a player not so experienced Flyrant X2 Dakkafex X2 Trygon Warriors 3 man units X2 Ygmarl Genestealer Zoanthropes X3 Something like this where fexs, zoanthropes and possibly trygon get dropped in. I'd swap the ymgarls for more warriors. With two flyrants and a trygon you won't have any issue hitting units hiding at the back of the board (or anywhere on the board for that matter). If the opponent thinks he can take out both warrior units on T1 then it would be very tempting to do just that. It would be a bad start to a game having all of your objective holders taken out before you've even moved anything
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Post by ranmafan on Feb 4, 2013 14:59:24 GMT
Squire - the critical factor here is that Tervigons can spawn Termagants 6" away. That gives Tervigons a maximum punching range of 24" (spawn 6", move Termagants 6", shoot 12"). The tactical considerations of spawning Gants from turn 1 and jamming vs. dropping them off at an objective 6" away after the Tervi has walked down the table is inestimable. Even better, a Tervi that can still spawn models when it's locked in combat can spawn them behind the enemy and use it to block off other enemy units from charging your Tervi, or join combat and add another two dozen attacks. I'm a fan of consistent performance - the less random variables I have the better. roxismcha - That looks kind of ok. I'm not sure about using double flyrants AND double dakkafexes - you need some synapse creatures that can keep them moving and not die. Either replace one flyrant with a Swarmlord/Armored Shell Tyrant, or a Tervigon or something.
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