cc armies viable?

[Squire]

Feb 1, 2013 14:43:11 GMT patsfan32 said:

Feb 1, 2013 13:54:17 GMT Squire said:

Swarmlord with 2 tyrant guard
4 warriors with rending claws and scything talons
4 warriors with rending claws and scything talons
21 hormagaunts
21 hormagaunts
21 hormagaunts
3 carnifexes

1498 points

I really like this list. I like all the hormagaunts lol. I may end up running something like this but I'd like to get raveners in there somehow. I may end up going an elite and fast kind of list. Ymgarls, raveners, a swarm star and broodlord commandos with points used up by warriors

Well I suppose you could do a straight swap of the two 3 carnifexes for two trygon primes, which would let you swap the two warrior units for two ravener units. You'd have to cut a few hormies to accomodate raveners with rending claws, but it's doable.

For the same points two trygon primes are probably just a straight iprovement on three fexes. Same total number of attacks and wounds, but the primes are synapse creatures and move faster and also have a higher initiative and a decent shooting attack. Trygons and raveners work better for the hormagaunts too, because they can keep up. The issue here is that the raveners aren't scoring units like the warriors, and you really need to the trygons to be primes or the only synapse you'd be getting would be from the swarmlord.

Anyway. I don't suggest these as competitive lists, but they fit the bill of pure combat Tyranids with enough synapse coverage and (at least in the first case) plenty of troops.

Maybe you could even try

Flyrant
Flyrant
22 hormies
21 hormies
21 hormies
5 raveners with rending claws
Trygon prime
Tyrgon prime

Everything except the two flyrants moves together as a big group. The flyrants rush anything problematic from the very start. Stuff like vehicles or backfield shooting units. Basically anything that can do you real damage from shooting. Once again, this list lacks troops so you'd have to hope the opponent is too preoccupied with the four monstrous creatures to pay them much attention. The good thing is the raveners are pretty safe from instant death shooting

[patsfan32]

How does the list I posted on the last page look? I feel like it has a decent amount of scoring units.

[Squire]

Feb 1, 2013 15:23:20 GMT patsfan32 said:

How does the list I posted on the last page look? I feel like it has a decent amount of scoring units.

I think most of the units are too small and vulnerable to shooting and I don't think there are enough units that can hit hard enough to scare an opponent. One issue is that there is only one monstrous creature (the flyrant). Well, you can be pretty sure if the opponent gets the first turn he is going to send a lot of powerful shooting (krak missles, lascannons etc) at the tyrant. Most opponents at 1500 points will have enough to kill it on T1. I think the next obvious target would be the zoanthropes. An army heavy on shooting has a great chance of killing both units on the first turn

What do you know of target saturation? It's a pretty important concept to Tyranids and one you should consider when you put your army together. In your list there is a flyrant and a load of other stuff that isn't an immediate threat at the start of the game. The opponent doesn't have a difficult decision with what to shoot their heavy weapons at- it's going to be the flyrant. Now consider a list with, say, two trygons and two tervigons. All are staring on the table. The opponent most likely doesn't have enough firepower to shoot at them all, and will have to choose which one to go for. Their problem is that if they ignore the trygons, they'll fleet up the board and make a mess of whatever they charge. If they ignore the tervigons, they'll spawn a load of gaunts and all of a sudden they will be faced with a horde of small guys and they could be up against 7 or 8 scoring units.

Against the army you posted this choice doesn't exist. The shrikes, raveners, hormagaunts and genestealers can all be dealt with using small arms fire (bolters etc.). The ymgarls can't really be prepared for so the opponent will just have to take the hit. The warriors would ideally require S8 shooting to kill, but it's a small unit without threatening weapons (boneswords) so they can be ignored as long as the tyrant and zoanthropes are on the table. The opponent has at least one turn to ignore the zoans while they drift into range- so only one good target remains; the flyrant. In a nutshell, the opponent isn't sacrificing anything by using their lascannons and missile launchers on the flyrant on T1. That's what you should be forcing the opponent to do.

[patsfan32]

Squire ok I see what what you mean I shall revise again lol I'm sure Ill come across something perfect eventually...how about this:

== HQ ==
Hive Tyrant (1) - Scything Talons, Lash Whip And Bonesword, Wings, Paroxysm, Leech Essence = 230 pts.
Swarmlord Brood (345 pts.)
Swarmlord (1) = 280 pts.
Tyrant Guard (1) - Lash Whip = 65 pts.

== Elites ==
Ymgarl Genestealer Brood (8) = 184 pts.
Zoanthrope Brood (2) = 120 pts.

== Troops ==
Hormagaunt Brood (30) = 180 pts.
Broodlord Brood (201 pts.)
Broodlord (1) - Scything Talons, Toxin Sacs = 65 pts.
Genestealer (8) - Toxin Sacs = 136 pts.

== Heavy Support ==
Trygon Prime (1) - Containment Spines, Trygon Prime Upgrade, Synapse Creature, Shadow In The Warp = 240 pts.

== Total ==
1500 pts.

[retnab]

If you're doing a Flyrant you'll probably want two twin linked Devourers on it, maybe drop 5 gaunts for it?

[Squire]

Feb 2, 2013 4:08:09 GMT patsfan32 said:

Squire ok I see what what you mean I shall revise again lol I'm sure Ill come across something perfect eventually...how about this:

== HQ ==
Hive Tyrant (1) - Scything Talons, Lash Whip And Bonesword, Wings, Paroxysm, Leech Essence = 230 pts.
Swarmlord Brood (345 pts.)
Swarmlord (1) = 280 pts.
Tyrant Guard (1) - Lash Whip = 65 pts.

== Elites ==
Ymgarl Genestealer Brood (8) = 184 pts.
Zoanthrope Brood (2) = 120 pts.

== Troops ==
Hormagaunt Brood (30) = 180 pts.
Broodlord Brood (201 pts.)
Broodlord (1) - Scything Talons, Toxin Sacs = 65 pts.
Genestealer (8) - Toxin Sacs = 136 pts.

== Heavy Support ==
Trygon Prime (1) - Containment Spines, Trygon Prime Upgrade, Synapse Creature, Shadow In The Warp = 240 pts.

== Total ==
1500 pts.

Looking good! Now I'd say the issue is having only two units of troops. On the other hand, with only the hormagaunts relying on synapse you don't need the trygon prime to be a prime. I'd save 40 points there and buy 6 more hormagaunts, then field two units of 18 hormies. Keep them on either side of the swarmlord and he'll stop them from running off (if he dies, the zoanthropes can keep them within synapse).

It sees like an army that can win games. Keep the flyrant hidden behind cover or the trygon/swarmlord on T1 then swoop off to deal with a nasty shooting unit. The ymgarls could also attack a unit that sits back and shoots. The rest of the army surges up to kill stuff. For an army with minimal shooting it seems like that could work. Personally I'd probably replace the regular genestealers with an extra tyrant guard and more hormagaunts, but that's just me. I've always ignored advice and fielded units just because they're cool. If you really like a certain unit or style of play then you should try to accommodate it

[patsfan32]

K fantastic this will be the list I will use ill see how well the swarmlord fares before. I drop the g stealers and add more tyrant guard, however I do like the idea of dropping down the prime and taking more hormys and splitting the unit. Can't wait to try this out. Ill have to proxy some zoans though I just got in to 40k so I'm still amassing minis lol

[ranmafan]

This is my 1750 Melee-focused Nids army:

HQ:
Swarmlord, 2x Tyrant Guards w/ Lash Whips. Biomancy.

Elites:
3x Hive Guards
Venomthrope
10x Ymgarl

Troops:
2x 10 Genestealers + 1 Broodlord w/ Toxin Sacs, Scytals on BL. Biomancy.
1x 10 Termagants
1x Tervigon w/ Catalyst, AG, TS.

Heavy:
3x Biovore

Infiltrate the Stealer broods on the weakest flank. Stealer-heavy composition makes army largely independent except for the Venom/HG/Biovores, the Swarmlord + Tervigon uses the blob to back up the Stealers while Biovores soften up infantry blobs/quad gun crews/heavy weapon teams.

Stealer broods are meant to soak up a fair number of wounds so the BL can get into combat. Even if they're both wiped out, the enemy has just spent 1 turn of shooting on them an not your Swarmlord.

Enemy must decide between the 2x 11-model Genestealer broods, or the blob footslogging towards them.

Multiple redundancy for cover-save mechanics means the Termagants AND Venomthrope must both be taken down - and the venomthrope should sit just within range of the Termagants (but farther back) so in case the opponent chooses poorly, the Termagants can get a cover save in open ground. The Tervigon can also screen the Swarmlord with his Catalyst ability, in case all else fails.

Ymgarls will almost definitely come in on turn 2 with Alien Cunning for additional Genestealer goodness - depending on the situation, you can use them to tie down heavy weapons teams, or support any engaged Genestealers in combat.

Of course this list only really works against not-so powergamey/competitive lists. It's hilarious fun if I can get into CC though, and the Stealers still melt whatever they touch for the most part.

[patsfan32]

ranmafan: Ya I like that list although to me that would be considered more of a balanced list haha. My list is working in extremes so any shooty units are wasted space in this list I am coming up with, and tervigons can go to hell lol I hate them having to be in every list. Make me a hormygon and ill run 5 of em lol

[ranmafan]

Well, I like to prep for situations such as canned meat. Always nice to pop some open and keep my stealers alive long enough to work their magic.