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Post by roxor08 on Dec 10, 2012 3:18:57 GMT
Hey guys, played 2 1850 games today and I was rather unhappy considering my list was supposed to be "tournament competitive".
My list:
HQ
Flyrant w/dual BL devs, hive commander
Elite
3 Hive guard
9 Ymargl stealers
Troops
10 termagants
10 termagants
Tervigon w/stinger salvo, toxin sacs, three powers, crushing claws
Tervigon w/stinger salvo, toxin sacs, three powers, crushing claws
Fast Attack
20 gargoyles
Heavy Support
3 Biovores
Trygon
Trygon
The SW/SM list that worked me over....from memory, I don't know if it's exact and. Don't know wargear, but it doesn't matter.
Logan (with long fangs)
5 wolf guard with combi plasma? And 3 additional in terminator armor
5 wolf guard with a mix of combi plasma and 3 additional terminator armor
Long fangs all with multimeltas
Dreadnought with assault cannon and CCW
5 scout snipers
5 scout snipers
Thunderfire cannon
Thunderfire cannon
10 stern guard with librarian in terminator armor
So pretty straightforward....all SW enter first turn by drop pod assault...actually all infantry are in pods minus scouts, even dread was in one...
Mission was relic, table deployment hammer and anvil...first turn goes to the marines.
I thought, to avoid losing too many mc's first turn so I reserved both Trygons, and outflanked a Tervigon...should have probs reserved Flyrant too.
Let's just say game was over first turn. SW arrived. Thunderfire cannons killed ~ 10 of my screening gargs, then the SW murdered the tyrant, Tervigon, all the gargs.
Reserves came in piecemeal until turn 3 when Ymargls decided to join the battle. So after beginning of turn 4 I called it. Tyranid loss.
The thing that bothers me the most is this was borderline my best list for all comers and I didn't even scratch him. I think I killed 1 wolf guard and both Thunderfire cannons.
Can anyone help me understand how I am supposed to play against this type of assault? Being that I am entering a tournament in ~ 3 months I'd like a fighting chance instead of a major fail every time...
Thanks guys I appreciate the help ahead of time.
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Post by rpricew on Dec 10, 2012 3:42:54 GMT
You needed to keep everything on the board in that situation. Maintain target saturation. He is coming to you with that list, so you can weather the storm and counter assault him.
Same thing happened to me, by reserving too much...I wound up facing 2000 points with 1300 and it doesn't go well.
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Post by infornography on Dec 10, 2012 6:57:04 GMT
Wait... EVERYTHING came in turn 1? If at any point in the game he didn't have SOMETHING on the field you win by default.
Also drop pod assault only drops half the pods round up on turn one, not all of them.
Something sounds fishy here.
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Post by Mearl on Dec 10, 2012 7:07:46 GMT
Have you tried ditching a Ymgarl, few Gargoyles, and a Trygon for a dakkafex/pod. I was using 2 trygons but picked up some dakkafex's and they're doing good, haven't tried podding them yet because I just finished making 2 but it seems pretty legit dropping a fex and shooting with pod+fex over deep striking a trygon and waiting tell the next turn. For some reason I just can't bring myself to strike my trygons over running them up the field soaking up shoots.
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Post by gigasnail on Dec 10, 2012 7:33:01 GMT
infornography that's not how it works. you loose if at the end of a game turn you have nothing on the board, not player turn. page 122, BRB the comment about drop pod assault is spot-on though. you get half your pods, rounded up on your turn 1.
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Post by Jabberwocky on Dec 10, 2012 8:08:21 GMT
The thunderfires would have been on the board anyway.
Only half the pods can come in turn 1 though, so he definitely cheated you there, if accidentally.
Knowing your opponent and the rules as well as playing the mission is the most important thing to remember.
It doesn't matter if you only killed 1 model, as long as you held the relic. Going second, sometimes you have to play for the draw and just focus on stopping the relic getting anywhere by killing the model with it. You can always win on linebreaker if you're lucky.
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Post by roxor08 on Dec 10, 2012 15:02:31 GMT
No, I know, here's what arrived first turn: Both squads of Wolf guard and Logan with long fangs.
The rest came between turn 2-3 when it no longer mattered because I was decimated...So he did it right, but I said it wrong....
Either way, is there anything that I could have done differently? I put both tervigon and hive tyrant in cover and it didn't even matter....
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Post by WestRider on Dec 10, 2012 15:54:30 GMT
Against Pod Armies, now that you can't Full Reserve anymore, the best approach is to spread out as much as possible. The Inertial Guidance System will stop a Drop Pod from Scattering into a Mishap, but it still can't be placed in a location where it will Mishap, i.e. within 1" of one of your Models.
Now, IIRC, Drop Pods are something like 5" across. This means that you can leave gaps between Units up to a bit over 6" and still leave that area of the Table as an unusable landing zone for them. Use the Gargoyles and Gaunts at max coherency* to set up a perimeter and keep the important stuff well back within that. If you're playing Hammer & Anvil, and have some Impassable Terrain around to help out, it's sometimes possible to keep the good stuff entirely outside of Rapid Fire/Melta Range for Turn 1. Regular Stealers are great here, because you can push them out another ~6" past your Deployment Zone, which pushes back the Drop Zone even further and gives you another option that can reach the Relic on Turn 1, and thus has to be dealt with quickly. Yealers can't grab the Relic, and are far more expensive Screens, but it still might be worth it for that extra bit of Table Control, especially if there's some good Cover for them up there.
That said, playing The Relic against Drop Lists largely comes down to who goes first. If you get the First Turn, and can get that Gargoyle Screen out past the Relic and some Spawned Gaunts on to it, they're going to have a heck of a time getting enough concentration of force around it to stop you from pulling it back, or at least keeping them off it long enough to get a Tärv up there to grab it. On the other hand, if they get the First Turn, they can drop a wall of Pods between you and the Relic that will take some time and a lot of hassle to smash through, and they can use that time to drop the Relic well back to their side of the Board.
Finally, a note on the pod timing, for people who were confused: Usually in this type of list, Drop Pods are purchased for the TFC, and used empty to manipulate Drop Pod Assault and make nuisances of themselves as Blocking Units later on. I would guess that there were 7 Pods here, 4 for the SW Units (dropping Turn 1 for Drop Pod Assault), 1 for the SternGuard, and two for the TFC that dropped empty.
*This helps cut down on the damage from the TFC, too.
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Post by stinckpickle on Dec 10, 2012 15:56:51 GMT
I would have kept both tervigons and the flyrant on the board. and deepstrike the trygons.
This way you can poop out the gants for cover and annoyance, while you wait for your heavy hitters. Then the when the trygons come in theyll be distracted from your tervs, that can now get on objectives/assault stuff. and your hive tyrants flyin round doin tyrant stuff.
basically always be trying to annoy the dookey out of them with one thing then with something else before the first thing dies
. cause if they get distracted and spread there fire then theyll never FULLY kill anything.
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Post by leeroy1986 on Dec 10, 2012 22:04:30 GMT
vs Deepstrike armies I go with a compact roman type formation, it means if they deep strike anywhere near you they have a good chance of a mishap, if they don't deep strike near you well then they are playing into your hands.
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Post by coredump on Dec 12, 2012 3:17:45 GMT
No, I know, here's what arrived first turn: Both squads of Wolf guard and Logan with long fangs. Yeah.... pretty sure that is not legal. I don't know if he Dread was SW or SM, but... The SW had either 3 or 4 pods from what I can tell. In either case, only 2 of their pods could drop in turn 1. The SM had 1-2 full pods, and possibly some empty pods, so they could have 1 or 2 pods drop in depending.... So he could not have both WG the LF squads come down on turn 1. Aside from that, there are ways of mitigating the alpha strike. Westrider covered most of them, keep spread out, and keep the gargs/gaunts between your MCs and any landing zone, preferably providing a 12" buffer. And keep your troops in area terrain. You want to keep your army together, either all on the table, or all in reserve. What you did was allow him to take you apart piecemeal. Your goal is for him to drop in, kill all gaunts/gargs, and then get destroyed by new gaunts and all TMCs. You have a good list, but you are playing against a good list; so the details matter. If you want more useful insights, we will need more of those details. If you can remember, try and give a more indepth report of at least the first couple of turns. I really don't see him having enough fire power to have done all of that damage on turn 1.... |
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Post by WestRider on Dec 12, 2012 17:59:47 GMT
The Drop Pod Assault Rules in the various SM Dexes haven't been Errataed to refer only to that Dex as far as I can tell. They still work of the total number of Pods in the Army.
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Post by Jestar on Dec 12, 2012 19:54:12 GMT
You want to keep your army together, either all on the table, or all in reserve. What you did was allow him to take you apart piecemeal. Your goal is for him to drop in, kill all gaunts/gargs, and then get destroyed by new gaunts and all TMC's. Totally agree with this. Having half your army on the board against all of an opposing force is suicide. If you're going reserve, place units that are easy to hide and still usable on the table, and then place others in reserve for Deepstrike etc. I always start with my Flyrant on the table, and if at all possible out of line of sight. If you reserve it you can get it where ever you want, but you also don't get to buff it the turn it comes on with Psychic powers. With your list if I was going reserves, I'd have the Flyrant, Biovores, Hive Guard, and either a tervigon and gaunts, or both Gaunts broods on the table at the beginning. If the terrain is such that you can hide a tervigon, as well as the flyrant, then great. If not, then go gaunts. If you can hide both tervigons (behind cover at least) then I'd probably start with both, as the extra powers to buff your flyrant can be life saving. On the other hand, I'd be very careful going reserves with your list. With the 2+ for reserves turn 2, it's a high chance you'll get them in, but your Trygons can't do much turn 2, and your HG probably won't be close enough to pop transports for your Ymgarls to get in and eat infantry. Also, your list is very slow, so a clever enemy will play keep away, and still be able to take you apart piece by piece. I run a reserves list at 1850. But I've got 2 Flyrants that start on the table, a Broodlord and Tervigon that start to help buff them, 2 Dakkafexes in Pods, and either Doom in pod or another Broodlord. Those then go with 2 units of Ymgarls and I have a ridiculous amount of firepower and assaults happening turn 2. Your list is a solid list, but not really built for making the most of reserves. |
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Post by coredump on Dec 13, 2012 1:44:42 GMT
The Drop Pod Assault Rules in the various SM Dexes haven't been Errataed to refer only to that Dex as far as I can tell. They still work of the total number of Pods in the Army. I don't think it needs an errata. the rule is a codex rule that just 'happens' to be the same in every codex that has Drop Pods. But the rule in the SM codex applies to SM drop pods, the rule in the SW codex applies to SW drop pods. Imagine if BA had a rule saying *all* pods came in turn 1. By default, rules in a codex apply to units in that codex. |
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Post by WestRider on Dec 13, 2012 6:46:31 GMT
Given the number of things like that that they have Errataed (Reserves Control Rules in particular), the lack of Errata on these kind of jumps out at me.
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