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Post by roxor08 on Nov 8, 2012 17:02:44 GMT
It depends on how tooled up your Warriors are. Because their cost escalates faster than the Prime's does, his proportion of the Brood drops for more expensive Warriors. If you're adding an 80 Point Prime to 30 Point Warriors, he costs about three Warriors, and is worth rather less than that. But if you've given everyone BoneSwords, LashWhips, and DeathSpitters, you're now adding a 100 Point Prime to a Brood of 50 Point Warriors, and he only costs 2 Warriors, but can still soak Krak Missiles like 3. Similarly with the BS boost: 6 Warriors with no upgrades, 180 Points: 18 shots, 9 Hits 3 Warriors+Prime with no upgrades, 170 Points: 12 shots, 8 Hits 6 Warriors with LW/BS & DeathSpitters, 300 Points: 18 shots, 9 Hits 4 Warriors+Prime with LW/BS & DeathSpitters, 300 Points: 15 shots, 10 Hits For the more expensive Warriors, he does actually provide an improvement in performance compared to spending the same amount of Points on more Warriors, even if it is a minor one. In Assault, I'm pretty sure he breaks even at best, unless you're up against WS5/6 Opponents, in which case he does provide a significant buff. Those are fairly rare, tho. Well put Westrider. I, personally, would rather spend those points elsewhere. The damage output from that unit is relatively small whereas you can significantly improve your damage output by using a Termagant/Tervigon combo or Flyrant. I like the attempt at bringing the Warriors into the realm of "usable" |
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Post by blindmage on Nov 9, 2012 6:17:09 GMT
Would a full brood of 9 warriors ever be advisable? I can;t shake the feeling that one or two such broods could make an amazing center to a list.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2012 7:47:41 GMT
I play just 3 with toxin sacs, scything talons, 2 rending claws and a barbed strangler. Back field synapse to fall back to, deployment zone objective holders, ranged support but still worth it if they get tied up in combat - all for 115 points. You have to give the entire brood RC so you need to pay up for 3. B Blindmage, it would be cool, I agree. 2 problems with a blob of 9 though. The whole s8 thing would wipe an immensely costly unit of your board pretty quickly, imagine running into some Leman Russes, ouch! Secondly, maybe I'm strange but I just use Wariors for Synapse and 9 seems a waste when you could have 2 mid-sized units for better synapse coverage. Sounds very fun but generally overkill and very risky. I could5 see myself going past 5/6. |
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Post by t⊗theark on Nov 9, 2012 11:34:12 GMT
I play just 3 with toxin sacs, scything talons, 2 rending claws and a barbed strangler. Back field synapse to fall back to, deployment zone objective holders, ranged support but still worth it if they get tied up in combat - all for 115 points. You have to give the entire brood RC so you need to pay up for 3. B What? No the scything talons are the thing staying, I'm only swapping out the devours for rending claws, and because you can only swam out the devour for a barbed strangler only 2 get rending claws. |
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Post by blindmage on Nov 9, 2012 17:40:50 GMT
Blindmage, it would be cool, I agree. 2 problems with a blob of 9 though. The whole s8 thing would wipe an immensely costly unit of your board pretty quickly, imagine running into some Leman Russes, ouch! Secondly, maybe I'm strange but I just use Wariors for Synapse and 9 seems a waste when you could have 2 mid-sized units for better synapse coverage. Sounds very fun but generally overkill and very risky. I could see myself going past 5/6. In my area it's 90% xenos, there's 1 imperial guy, S8 weapons are usually CC based around here. I've always wanted to run 2 Primes, 2+ 9 man warrior broods and full broods of Shrikes, points dependant of course. It seems like it'd be a real hassle to deal with, especially if the Shrikes were always used aggressively..maybe toss on a Trygon Prime or 3 for DSing or to keep pressure off the Warriors. |
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Post by vecuu on Nov 11, 2012 20:43:37 GMT
An interesting question about Warrior's against S8 missiles.
Let's compare a Warrior to a Carnifex (dakkafex, since it's more commonly used) or a Trygon.
A Dakkafex is 190 points, and a Trygon is 200.
When you split up the cost of each of those MCs by wounds, you end up with
47.5 pts per wound on a Dakkafex
and
33.3 pts per wound on a Trygon
Assuming you're up against S8, and your Warriors are getting shot at by the S8, they are essentially 1W models and, as such, their points per wound reflects their total points.
When put into perspective, I don't actually think they're that terrible, even against S8, particularly since their point-per-wound ratio triple when they get hit by S7 or less.
That being said, if you take a Krak Missle to a warrior, you actually lose his points worth of models on the table, whereas a Trygon has to lose his 6th wound before you lose the model. But meh.
Just some musings.
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Post by WestRider on Nov 11, 2012 23:16:30 GMT
Note also that an MC can get FNP against those Krak Missiles in addition to Cover. In 5th Ed, that generally held true, because Warriors were usually getting 4+ Cover against Krak, while MCs were getting 4+ FNP. But now Warriors are generally just getting 5+ Cover, while MCs can often get 5+ Cover AND 5+ FNP. This improves the situation for the MCs slightly, while worsening it significantly for Warriors, who were kind of on the borderline there in 5th anyhow.
Additionally, the MCs' Point-per-Wound ratio more or less triples against most S7 or lower firepower as well, since they get their 3+ Armour Save against most of it, while a fair amount denies Warriors their 4+. Plasma being the big exception, of course.
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Post by lord6christoph on Nov 11, 2012 23:26:15 GMT
I will be testing out a Brood of 6 Warriors with deathspitters and a barbed strangler led by a Prime being outflanked by Hive Commander. This, coupled with a DS dakka fex, DS devilgants, Ystealers and a Trygon prime should throw my opponent into disarray as his backfield gets flooded with bugs. Then he also has to worry about the charging tyrant, 30 gaunts, 30 gants, , venomthropes and 3 hive guard.
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Post by vecuu on Nov 12, 2012 0:04:31 GMT
Note also that an MC can get FNP against those Krak Missiles in addition to Cover. In 5th Ed, that generally held true, because Warriors were usually getting 4+ Cover against Krak, while MCs were getting 4+ FNP. But now Warriors are generally just getting 5+ Cover, while MCs can often get 5+ Cover AND 5+ FNP. This improves the situation for the MCs slightly, while worsening it significantly for Warriors, who were kind of on the borderline there in 5th anyhow. Additionally, the MCs' Point-per-Wound ratio more or less triples against most S7 or lower firepower as well, since they get their 3+ Armour Save against most of it, while a fair amount denies Warriors their 4+. Plasma being the big exception, of course. I don't really consider FNP much of a factor in 6th for Nids, since anybody who can cast it will most likely be rolling on Biomancy for Iron Arm. I do, however, see your point and was able to recognize your negatives previous to this thread, and, as such, still don't tend to run Warriors very often. Plus, S10 Large Blasts are super, super mean to Warriors. |
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Post by coredump on Nov 12, 2012 1:44:41 GMT
Additionally, the MCs' Point-per-Wound ratio more or less triples against most S7 or lower firepower as well, since they get their 3+ Armour Save against most of it, while a fair amount denies Warriors their 4+. Plasma being the big exception, of course. Sure, but the warrior P/W ratio also triples against any S7 or lower firepower that is AP4; just like the TMCs. But they also triple against AP3 or AP2; while the TMCs don't. And they go up by 6x against AP5/6. One *BIG* caveat: Once you get to S7 and lower, the TMC toughness comes into play; which I have *not* factored in here. If I get bored enough later I might.... |
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Post by WestRider on Nov 12, 2012 2:38:42 GMT
That's why I mentioned Plasma as an exception, since that's the main source of AP1-3, S7- firepower I see. The only one I see in bulk, really, and T6 does help the MCs somewhat.
Thinking about it, this looks like it really calls for some sort of chart or something. I might pull out the graph paper myself and give it a go. More going on here than I was thinking at first.
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Post by vecuu on Nov 12, 2012 2:57:18 GMT
Yeah, this actually really interests me as well. I'm no mathematician, but if I fumble around with some numbers long enough I may be able to come up with something reasonable.
Effective Warrior Brood vs TMC durability.
Fascinating.
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Post by brianb9999 on Nov 12, 2012 3:02:42 GMT
I think I did the math and it takes, on average, 108 bs 4 bolter shots to down a trygon, and less so for 6 warriors. I was thinking along the same lines that the 3 wounds per warrior would make a big difference, but against small arms, the 3+ save and toughness 6 is still better. That plus the fact that a trygon with 1 wound is just as deadly as one with 6 wounds is making me consider using my trygon for my most current list over warriors.
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