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Post by Jabberwocky on Oct 29, 2012 15:34:09 GMT
Are you guys serious?? Rolling dice is CORE to the entire warhammer mechanic!
Every time you try to hit something you risk missing completely! Every time you try to use a psychic power you risk killing yourself! Seriously, work around the risk.
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Post by gigasnail on Oct 29, 2012 18:36:12 GMT
it'd only be the same if you rolled charge distance for individual models, or you rolled a random range every turn for your entire unit to shoot. people not understanding this, i don't know what to tell you.
random charge distance is a bad rule. i've still won all my games in 6th. doesn't change the fact the rule is bad.
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Post by Jabberwocky on Oct 29, 2012 18:40:14 GMT
You rolled shooting distance in 5th nightfighting.
You rolled LD for target priority in 3rd/4th to be able to shoot.
You roll charge distance in fantasy.
You roll a psychic test to be able to shoot warp lances.
The list goes on. The game is based on rolling. Even in the movement phase you have dangerous and difficult terrain which can easily leave you out of line of sight or out of range for shooting and/or assault.
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Post by gigasnail on Oct 29, 2012 18:58:32 GMT
everyone hated nightfighting in 5th. i don't play fantasy, they can do whatever it is they do. this isn't 3rd or 4th edition. the psychic test with warp lances are based on a LD test, which with LD 10 and two or 3 zoantrhopes in a unit, it's pretty consistant unless you're close to a rune priest or similiar unit. random charge distance is basically a coin toss 50% charge from a distance of more than 5" or so. a one time 50-50 chance for something to happen means it's not particularly, you know, reliable. you need two or three units to ensure even one charge goes off. this is bad for short-ranged, CC oriented armies. you know, like tyranids...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2012 19:24:02 GMT
You rolled shooting distance in 5th nightfighting. You rolled LD for target priority in 3rd/4th to be able to shoot. You roll charge distance in fantasy. You roll a psychic test to be able to shoot warp lances. The list goes on. The game is based on rolling. Even in the movement phase you have dangerous and difficult terrain which can easily leave you out of line of sight or out of range for shooting and/or assault. If these all make it cool, why stop there? Why not expand the random fun!!! Random shooting distance, always. Your super soldiers might decide to shoot at the ground in front of their feet! Exciting! Random weapon strength, will take super strategy because who knows when your Lascannon will fart out a laser-pointer beam! Random LD for everyone, who knows what mood your soldiers woke up in. Maybe they watched a scary movie the night before! Random assault distance, who knows when your assault soldiers running towards the foe for their life under a hail of fire will decide to stop after a few feet to take a breather and look at some flowers? Random Strength for all models, who knows if they pulled a muscle while training recently or if they've been eating a diet low on protein! Random rolls every turn to see if your vehicles ran out of gas, oops! Should've gone with a hybrid! Notice the random assault range fits in with these others as equally ridiculous . . . |
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Post by Jabberwocky on Oct 29, 2012 19:53:47 GMT
Even lascannons can already fail to wound grots 16.7% of the time.
Even a lasgun can wound a Tervigon.
Don't try and make this about what is and isn't ridiculous.
For the record, all those 'crazy' things are already accounted for in the rules. 1s always failing, dangerous and difficult terrain for troops and vehicles, perils in the warp, rolling 11s on a LD10 test, getting sweeping advanced by a ripper, etc etc.
You should already be preparing for failures and how you will work around them.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2012 20:03:14 GMT
Well if random assaults allow huge beasts that tunnel through solid rock to assault 2m, why not randomize other things? You haven't explained how it's any less ridiculous. Why can't I make it about the fact that it's ridiculous?
"You should already be preparing for failures and how you will work around them."
Well why shouldn't people have to plan around random gun ranges? 40k is a dice game, but when you assault you end up rolling plenty of dice in CC. Rolling dice to see if you can even get into CC from 4" makes no sense. Since shooting also rolls dice to see how it plays out, why not match it with assault and roll dice to see if you can even do it when you are within what looks like a reasonable range?
I would drop my argument that random assault range is ridiculous if anyone could give a reason why it makes sense game-wise, which I haven't heard anyone even attempt. The response is always, as you gave me, "deal with it". But that could be said for anything. If GW were to randomize whether or not the person who goes first gets a bonus 200 points they can immediately field, you could just as equally respond, "You should be prepared for the enemy possibly getting 200 free points, deal with it".
Your argument, Jabberwocky, is that I can't point out things that I think are ridiculous and that I have to just deal with it. Neither of those opinions have any non-objective basis so they just aren't debatable.
So, all fluff/imagination aside, what is the gameplay basis for random assault distances?
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Post by Jabberwocky on Oct 29, 2012 20:19:17 GMT
Fluff wise...
You have already moved 6". Your total move including charge is 8"-18" in total when making a charge. This could represent how prepared/fired up the unit is, how steep the gradient is, how they trip/clamber over the dead bodies of the fallen.
Game wise....
With pre-measuring, a shooty unit would *always* need to stay 12.1" away for example. With random charge, people take risks. It could pay off for either player.
With set charges and pre-measuring, you can pretty much predict exactly how a unit will act. The opponents move will be obvious. In my opinion, the game is more exciting this way. Random charge has kind of replaced guessing distances.
Where shooting is more reliable, assaulting lets you gain ground (contesting/claiming an objective even), lets you completely wipe a unit through sweeping advance, lets you tarpit a shooty unit and take away a massive part of it's capabilities.
It might seem harsh to us as an assault army but it can be balanced, assuming newer codexes are written with an understanding of how 6th ed plays.
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Post by notanoob on Oct 30, 2012 5:24:24 GMT
Fantasy has had random charges a while now and is generally heralded as a lot more tactical. Certainly more tactical than 5th ed was. Fantasy had a fixed charge length in 7th edition, the 'tactical' edition that was ruined by Chaos Demons. The latest edition is seriously hated on by a number of players because of the new random charge length and random magic. They learned their lessons about magic, ensuring there are no "I win" spells that you may just happen to roll, but didn't learn that RCL is just a pain. The realistic effects of RCL is occasionally blowing up an assault for you. Going for charges of more than 7" results in a failed charge more often than not and a loss of a few models to overwatch. With the low chance of success, it doesn't often happen, thus meaning you don't really have a charge range of more than 7", while on occasion even really short charges are ruined by rolling snake eyes or losing just enough models to overwatch to push you out of charge range. It's a straight nerf that was not needed. Now, this is not to say that it's the end of the world for assault, but let's not pretend like RCL is a good thing for us. |
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Post by Talonis on Oct 30, 2012 8:01:23 GMT
Without getting to much into it, I personally don't mind the random charge length. It's just an extra feature which allows the game to take unexpected twists and turns, adding a more dynamic game.
Along with random objectives, mysterious terrain and other random effects, it creates a game which is bound to be different all the time and you can not measure exactly all the time, as the addition of ore easier as some one already stated changed the game, and would massively Benefit shooting armies. So giving the option to cover more ground quickly while charging is a good thing.
And let's be honest, who is really that scared of overwatch? Maybe a few hits here and there but mostly nothing dramatic happens.
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Post by Jabberwocky on Oct 30, 2012 9:11:07 GMT
I quite often make 7-9" charges, but then I am using often fleet units to try and pile into a combat I have already secured with another unit.
I can't help but think if this was a Tau forum, people would either be loving 6th or crying that possible 12" charges were unfair and overpowered.
I play against predominately shooty armies and I still have good odds at winning. When I play assault armies I smash them, because of how my list is geared. I believe *most* of this edition is balanced (for the pre-DE codexes + new chaos) and random charge is part of that. Assault is higher risk, higher pay off.
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Post by N.I.B. on Oct 30, 2012 14:44:35 GMT
Why pull Night Fighting into the discussion? It's a non-issue.
From 3++:
Okay, first off, let’s count the shooting armies in the game: Imperial Guard, Dark Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Sisters of Battle, Space Marines, Grey Knights. Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Chaos Space Marines, and Orks can also have meaningful shooting included in their list, so we’ll count them in. Now, which of these armies care about Night Fighting?
Tau and Dark Eldar literally just ignore it, either naturally or with a minimal-cost upgrade. Necrons can turn it off the one turn of the game it could matter and are mostly shorter-range shooting, so it doesn’t hurt them much. Every one of the Imperial armies (and Chaos) has Searchlights available or for free and will almost always be bringing at least a few vehicles that can activate them as needed. So who does that leave? Orks. Night Fighting affects Orks. Specifically, it affects Lootas, because all the other Ork guns are pretty much too short-ranged to care.
So yes, all of those Ork Lootas have to deal with increased cover saves on the first turn. That’s what Night Fighting does. Everyone else? They don’t give a (please do not swear).
And please get your facts straight about Fantasy random charges - they add the basic movement factor (4" is the most common) to the dice rolled. That's a big difference.
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Post by Jabberwocky on Oct 30, 2012 15:44:14 GMT
N.I.B. In fantasy you charge before any moves. Average move is 4"-5". That is an inch less than our move then assault in 40k.
No one was disputing the effect of night fighting either. I just used it as an example of random range, which we had in 5th.
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Post by biomassbob on Oct 30, 2012 18:04:43 GMT
I agree with the problems mentioned - it does affect assaulty units. However, it is how it works in the game overall, with other rules, and with dex units/rules that is often the bigger problem then the rule itself. IMO, the problem is with a unit like genestealers, for example, that has to deal with random charge length even with an enemy in the open on top of not having assault grenades, facing overwatch, can't assault on turn of outflanking, with no reduction of unit cost or rules/stat adjustment. I like the overwatch idea as I never liked the idea of stealers outflanking and assaulting a unit without them having a chance to do anything.
It is all the things combined, along with poor saves for many units such as gaunts, stealers, raveners, that cause troubles when assaulting. With the other rules that affect assaulting already, I think RCL would be better if you had a certain number of inches + a roll of some type. I much preferred moving 6" running d6 and charging, and if through cover with the possibility of failure - if failed at least the unit moved 6 + d6 inches. Now you move 6 inches and if you fail the charge roll get no further and get shot. It seems to many rules hamper the assault unit with no compensation (reduced point cost, special rules, stat change).
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Post by N.I.B. on Oct 31, 2012 10:01:15 GMT
You should already be preparing for failures and how you will work around them. And people are - by not fielding T4, or other expensive cc units. Pre-measuring is convenient but it meant GW were forced to introduce random charge lengths to not unbalance the game completely in the favour of shooty armies (I put my unit 12.0001" from your unit so you can't reach me). Just like they did in Fantasy. But how it ended up in 40K, was that assault became weaker while shooting still became much stronger. Worse cover saves, Pre-measuring, random charge length (fail is stand still), nerfed Fleet and casualties removed from the front = major nerf to assault units. That's how it is. Once you're there (in combat) it's a better place to be than ever. The trick is getting there - as we're mostly Fearless, a cheap unit will do the trick until we can add more Gants to the situation, or a MC. |
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