Manipulating Challenges

[Jestar]

One thing I noticed while commenting on another thread, is that Challenges can only be accepted/issued by models engaged in the combat. So any character not within 2" of a btb model at the start of the fight phase can't accept the challenge.

This means that if you want a particular enemy character to accept a challenge (when there's more than one option) you can force them to do so if they have kept their Characters spread out in a unit. If you attack one side in a charge, making sure that any of their character models (that you want to avoid) are over 2" away from a btb model, they cannot accept the challenge. They are left with either accepting the challenge on your terms, or refusing, and losing the benefits of that character for that round of combat.

This is most easily achieved when you assault with MC's or other single model units, as a high charge roll with a big unit would mean there's more chance of the second enemy character becoming engaged in the combat.

I know it's not game changing, but it may just make a difference from time to time.

[gigasnail]

...well, yeah. if an character is more than 2" away from the unit you charge...he's not in the unit, not in the combat, and can't be involved in a challenge.

[Jestar]

Yes, but even if he is in the unit you charge, he won't be able to accept a challenge if he's too far away.

[gigasnail]

i see what you're saying straight RAW in the first part of the challenge rules pg. 64, but it makes no sense, especially since the next section (fighting a challenge) puts them in b2b, going so far as to swap models out of the way to do it. let me dig at the FAQ for a minute because something's not exactly right.

[gigasnail]

this doesn't really make much sense. says you can't accept/issue challenges with characters "that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model)". ok, fine except that you issue/accept challenges at the start of the fight sub-phase, before any pile-in movements are made. unless an enemy character is on the leading edge of the formation, you will never get to accept a challenge when charged because you haven't moved anyone else into b2b at this point.

someone halp.

[WestRider]

No, it actually is correct. I looked it up earlier today because it came up over on 3++. You have to actually be Engaged at the start of the Fight Sub-Phase to Issue or Accept a Challenge.

This can also be a useful tool on the defense, if your Opponent has a strong Challenge Character. Form up with a solid* wall of Models out front and more than two inches of space between those front Models and the Character you want to keep out of a Challenge. At the start of the Sub-Phase, when declarations are made, he'll be Unengaged, and thus unable to Challenge or Accept, but then he'll get to Pile In on his Init step and still actually fight.

Particularly important for Chaos Marines, with Champion of Chaos in effect. If I'd thought to do that with my Culties and Huron last Game, that might have actually swung the Game for me.

*No gaps of an inch or more.

[gigasnail]

i see it's correct as written, it's just counter-intuitive to how the rule is supposed to work. it's not like they're not going to 1) be moved base to base if already engaged anyway, even if there are 30 models in the way, or 2) not going to just move into combat during their pile-in initiative step.

this rule is going to cause stupid amounts of arguing.

[DukeMantis]

Might be useful but only to annoy your opponent, doesnt seem in keeping with the spirit of the game to me. Would be intrigued to know if it has worked in competetive tourneys

[voraciousapathy]

"Spirit of the game" is such a nebulous term to bandy about whenever a rule doesn't sit well with someone.

I'm not a Ghost Hunter -- spirits are like wrestling. Fake.

Moving on to the actual rules of the game we're playing, nothing at all is unclear except people's understanding of 6e. "Assault" is now broken into components, and people want to just pretend that it isn't, because 5e wasn't like that. Sorry, kids, but in 6e, I can put my Hive Tyrant 2'' behind a front line of Guards, and avoid having to deal with any annoying challenges until I've had a turn to smash your mooks with my Bone Sabres.

It adds more maneuvering to the game, making the game more complex. It lets you actually DEFEND against impending assaults, rather than just having to suffer through them because you failed your own charge. Now, you can screen with other units, and screen your character with his OWN unit, OR you can use your character to SPEARHEAD the assault, ensuring engagement. You have control, as the player -- and more responsive controls are ALWAYS better.

[coredump]

And it even makes sense. If the character(s) are too far away... they don't have a chance to single each other out until later in the fight.

[Psychichobo]

Fantasy has only recently included a rule to address this - the 'Make Way' rule, where a character who is in a unit that engaged in combat but not in combat themselves can swap places with a rank-and-file model in base-to-base with the enemy before blows are struck.

However, this is also optional, so if your wizard isn't in combat, you don't have to force him to the front. So really even in Fantasy, where much of this entire ruleset is derived from, the principle is the same and perfectly in keeping with 'the spirit of the game'*




*which is a term I only ever seem to hear when I don't charge my Nids blindly into a Guard gunline or I use a vague exploit against a tournament list brought to a casual game, so meh.