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Post by Talonis on Oct 17, 2012 0:39:01 GMT
So we can intentionally aim more than 6" from enemies while shooting, hope it doesn't scatter towards the enemy just to place spore mines then? Guess you learn something new everyday Although situation it could have its uses.
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Post by coredump on Oct 17, 2012 3:18:01 GMT
I do not see any rule that allows that. Basic shooting rules require you to target a model/unit.
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Post by ferro on Oct 17, 2012 3:33:52 GMT
So we can intentionally aim more than 6" from enemies while shooting, hope it doesn't scatter towards the enemy just to place spore mines then? Guess you learn something new everyday Although situation it could have its uses. No, this is not legal under current rules. IIRC, in one our older codecis biovores could target empty ground to populate an area with mines, which was AWESOME. But that's old rules. Biovores must fire at an enemy unit.
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Post by Talonis on Oct 17, 2012 4:49:03 GMT
Well that's how I've been playing anyway so nothing lost I didn't think that was allowed.
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Post by commandersasha on Oct 17, 2012 8:14:24 GMT
The older version that allows mine chucking without a target sounds fun! I have seen (though not played) the older codex with the choice of 3 different types of mine, which was more flavoursome; I think GW should re-launch the Biovore as a box of 3 with plenty of spores, and a new ruleset: 1) they can aim mines at open ground 2) they can choose between a 4/4 L.blast pinning, 3) ...a 3/- blast Haywire 4) ...or an "Aerial mine", doesn't affect ground units, but if a flyer comes within 6" during any movement, it takes a Haywire hit.
I love the idea of mines on 6" high stalks, creating an airfield that Flyers have to weave between!
60 points each sound fair?
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Post by Sensei on Oct 17, 2012 14:02:58 GMT
I use biovores almost all the time if I can afford them.
Regarding their targeting, I'm 99.9% sure they MUST target a unit. However if they scatter into open ground, they can still resolve if within 6". If they miss but are within 6", the first shot might not hit, because the radius of the blast is only 2.5" itself. You then have to hope the other two scatter in the direction of an enemy unit, but then they are still likely to only hit with some of their potential as they must be placed in contact adjacent to either the first or second blast, and so might only have part of their blast covering enemy models.
The true power of the biovore comes when you land a direct hit on the target unit. Specifically because you resolve from the centre of the blast so they can be used to target special characters/power fists/special weapons before your CC units close in for the kill. Any secondary (or tertiary) blasts from other biovores that score a direct hit may be placed anywhere as long as they are in contact with the first blast at some point.
As an example, take a unit of two biovores. I target the sgt/leader of a five man Space marine squad. I score a direct hit on the first, and the blast covers all 5 guys. My second blast scores a direct hit and I place it in the same spot, scoring another 5 hits centreed on the sgt. He now has 10 Look out Sir rolls to make to survive and even if he passes, he only has 4 guys to allocate to before he is forced to take the hits. Highly likely I'm taking the Sgt, and a number of other marines out, if not all.
Now with 6th edition rules, the same 5 man squad with a second independent character gets hit in the same manner; my second direct hit may now be placed over the second independent character, as long as it is touching any part of the first blast marker. With a third biovore, a third direct hit roll allows me to place the third blast anywhere in contact with either of the first two. This makes biovores (or any other multiple barrage weapon) potentially deadly even to spread out units. They become particularly dangerous to units with multiple characters in them. Yes, it takes some good luck with the dice, but it's incredible when it works, and still decent enough when it doesn't.
My only issue with them is when they completely miss. The spore mine is a unique ammunition and is the only weapon to be "effective" after missing. The only problem is that they are not. In theory (and fluff) it's incredible that when my biovores miss, they litter the battlefield with spores that explode and decimate enemy ranks while the biovores target someone new. The problem is the living bomb rule doesn;t really reflect this. Yes, they drift independently on your next turn. Yes, they explode if an enemy gets close. The enemy could shoot them and get a kill point, but then they can't assault. But they have another option.
The solution to spore mines (either places or fired from a biovore) is to just move within 2" of it. If any enemy model is that close at the end of a movement phase it automatically explodes and if they are in a cluster, the explosion will trigger all the other ones (remember they have to be placed in base to base when deployed, or fired). The blast marker has a radius of 2.5". So, a single model from an enemy unit could move to within the threat radius, set it off and all other models in the unit would be safe, even without maximum coherency. Because the blast was set off during the movement phase, the enemy can still fire at another unit and then charge if in range, and they only risked one model. They won't get a kill point because the trigger for the explosion was the proximity of an enemy, not an actual attack, but no one other the DE will really care about that.
The one saving grace to this problem is that spores are pinning, so if it manages to take out the one guy, the unit might be pinned. However with space marine saves, you are really relying on the spore's ability to force multiple saves. And then most units are likely to pass the pinning test anyways.
That's my two cents based off of a lot of use with them. Their rules have always been worded strangely, even in prior codexes so I have spent a lot of time going over them rule by rule with my friends to get them functioning correctly.
Hope I've helped.
*Edit* I love the idea of an aerial mine. I think it would be awesome to have an aerial blast or something of the sort. I know blasts can't target flyers, but that doesn't really make sense in my head. True flak is a charge set to explode like a firework sending shrapnel everywhere to shred flying targets as they are extremely difficult to hit with individual shots barring missiles. It would be amazing if a similar ammo option became available for biovores.
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Post by jahatch42878 on Oct 17, 2012 14:36:03 GMT
The only part of this great post by sensei I have to look into is the # of Look Out Sir tests...
I understand how he came up with the #, but I would initially think that you'd only have to make one Look out Sir test per template although as he states, if you end up killing the rest of the unit then there is no one left to save the character...
I would normally take one look out sir test per template, then allocated the other hits/wounds to the rest of the squad, and then if obviously the rest of the squad was taken out, the character take the hits...
as written do you make the look out sir tests first? last? or is that decided on by the shooter or the owning player? (I know there are rules for the order and who decides, I just can't recall off the top of my head, although when dealing with blasts I am not sure if that changes things)...
it seems excessive to have to pass 10 Look Out Sir rolls... also it seems like that would just slow the game down when these instances occur... but I also see the reasoning behind it as far as the closest to the center of the blast is concerned, and if the first look out sir test is passed, then you have to pass another as you are still targetting the closest to the center, but wouldn't have played it this way without reading this post.... I get it as far as RAW but counter-intuitive as far as how a blast weapon would actually work ... although obviously real life physics doesn't always apply to games!!!
- Josh
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Post by coredump on Oct 17, 2012 17:57:40 GMT
target units take casualties starting with the 'closest' model to the firing unit. For Barrage weapons, the closest is measured from the center of the blast marker So from the example, both blasts got a Hit result, and were both placed over the Sgt. 10 hits, roll for wounds.... 6 wounds. First wound allocates to the Sgt. Sgt LoS, pass marine saves/fail Sgt saves. Assuming the Sgt survives the second wound allocates to the sgt just as the first did. This continues.
So all 6 wounds will allocate to the Sgt (assuming he stays alive.) He will need to either make his LoS or save in order to survive.
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Post by TheContortionist on Oct 18, 2012 2:27:33 GMT
well. i guess it wasn't as clear as some thought. just realized this thread has a ton of views and stuff.
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Post by Sensei on Oct 18, 2012 3:20:25 GMT
The Look out Sir rolls do slow things down a bit.... I've found there a quite a few instances in 6th edition that as per the rules, you have to roll individual dice or are unable to roll all of the hits/wounds/saves all at once. Slows things down a bit at first, but once you get used to it it's not bad. As long as you and your opponent agree, you can always come to a compromise. jahatch42878 - glad you liked my post. I really enjoy biovores, and they have caused some insane damage to my friend's armies. Sadly, they are always high on my enemy's target priority. They are one of the first things my friends try and take out every time I field them
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Post by Talonis on Oct 18, 2012 8:14:36 GMT
Some really excellent posts above! Just one this about the placed mines, they never give up kill points and are basically ignored for all objective purposes. So a unit moving into them to make them explode, will not give a kill point nor will it if they are shot to death.
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Post by Lanesend on Oct 18, 2012 11:33:28 GMT
Now with 6th edition rules, the same 5 man squad with a second independent character gets hit in the same manner; my second direct hit may now be placed over the second independent character, as long as it is touching any part of the first blast marker. With a third biovore, a third direct hit roll allows me to place the third blast anywhere in contact with either of the first two. This makes biovores (or any other multiple barrage weapon) potentially deadly even to spread out units. They become particularly dangerous to units with multiple characters in them. Yes, it takes some good luck with the dice, but it's incredible when it works, and still decent enough when it doesn't. Hi Sensei, great post! I have a question about this part. Using your example, do you allocate the wounds from the second blast marker from the middle of that second blast marker? I thought that you always allocate from the middle of the first blast, even if the second or third blasts' middle cover another model.
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Post by Sensei on Oct 19, 2012 1:44:08 GMT
Ooops, my bad on the placed spores. As you can see, I never take them as fast attack though. Even if they don't give up kill points, I still can't justify spending the points on something that *might* interfere with deployment and will at most hurt one or two enemy models. For 3 spores, I can have a whole other Ravener, and I love them. They are wickedly scary. Lanesend - I would allocate wounds from the centre of each blast. Page 34 of the BRB, last bullet in the "Barrage" box says to allocate from the centre of the appropriate blast marker. This makes barrage weapons insanely good at targeting characters or special weapons you need to take out of an enemy squad, but might not be able to effectively in CC or with other ranged weapons due to enemy model placement. Even though it's only S4/AP4, biovores got a huge boost with this rule.
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Post by coredump on Oct 19, 2012 2:31:16 GMT
Okay, there is a problem there.
The rules in the book make it pretty clear that you handle it as Sensei says; the wounds from each blast are allocated from the center of that blast.
The FAQ, however, says you combine all of the hits together, and then 'allocate as normal'. The problem is there is no way to do that....
The most common response I hear is to ignore the stupidity of the FAQ and just handle it the way Sensei describes. To do it any other way either breaks the game, or requires you to create additional rules so it will work. (Such as allocating all wounds only from the center of the first blast.)
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Post by Lanesend on Oct 19, 2012 5:49:53 GMT
Thanks guys. Somehow I read "original" blast marker instead of "appropriate" blastmarker before. This makes a lot more sense. (and makes the biovores even better at sniping! )
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