Hammer of Wrath in Challenges

[lickitor]

So here's another one that had me thinking, although it's probably an easy one to answer.
When charging into a unit with a character that has Hammer of Wrath special rule... If i wanted to issue a challenge to an opponent's character.. do I do this at the HoW initiative 10 step? and if so, does the HoW attack take place within the challenge against the character I will be attacking?
Or does the hammer of wrath attack strike the unit first and then I can issue the challenge at my models normal initiative step?

[heartagramtc]

I was told by one of our tourney judges that he says it works after the challenge. But it could be wrong.

[gloomfang]

Challanges are declared before I10, they are done at the "Beginning of Fight Subphase". Basically the same time Lash Whips and MSS goes off.

HoW goes off at I10. Well after that part of the phase. There is some contention about how HoW and MSS interact.

[Raven]

Oct 8, 2012 17:39:17 GMT gloomfang said:

Challanges are declared before I10, they are done at the "Beginning of Fight Subphase". Basically the same time Lash Whips and MSS goes off.

HoW goes off at I10. Well after that part of the phase. There is some contention about how HoW and MSS interact.

That brings up an interesting question, if Lash Whips and challenges happen at the same time, does that mean you can use a challenge to ignore a Lash Whip? Say, Mephiston charges Swarmlord and Tyrant Guard with Lash Whip, gets into b2b with Tyrant Guard, can Mephiston then challenge the Swarmlord and if it accepts, not be affected by the Tyrant Guard's Lash Whip, despite having gone into b2b with the model?

[thatnidguy]

Glancing over the rules , it seems that the challenge happens at the start of the phase while HoW is during the phase . I would say it would happen after the challenge , if your model is alive

[Jestar]

Oct 9, 2012 5:20:13 GMT Raven said:

Oct 8, 2012 17:39:17 GMT gloomfang said:

Challanges are declared before I10, they are done at the "Beginning of Fight Subphase". Basically the same time Lash Whips and MSS goes off.

HoW goes off at I10. Well after that part of the phase. There is some contention about how HoW and MSS interact.

That brings up an interesting question, if Lash Whips and challenges happen at the same time, does that mean you can use a challenge to ignore a Lash Whip? Say, Mephiston charges Swarmlord and Tyrant Guard with Lash Whip, gets into b2b with Tyrant Guard, can Mephiston then challenge the Swarmlord and if it accepts, not be affected by the Tyrant Guard's Lash Whip, despite having gone into b2b with the model?

Correct. In this situation Mephiston would not be Initiative 1 because challenges are treated as a separate combat with no other models involved until you get to the assault results.

[Raven]

Oct 9, 2012 8:36:59 GMT Jestar said:

Oct 9, 2012 5:20:13 GMT Raven said:

That brings up an interesting question, if Lash Whips and challenges happen at the same time, does that mean you can use a challenge to ignore a Lash Whip? Say, Mephiston charges Swarmlord and Tyrant Guard with Lash Whip, gets into b2b with Tyrant Guard, can Mephiston then challenge the Swarmlord and if it accepts, not be affected by the Tyrant Guard's Lash Whip, despite having gone into b2b with the model?

Correct. In this situation Mephiston would not be Initiative 1 because challenges are treated as a separate combat with no other models involved until you get to the assault results.

Ok, follow up question. If I charge Mephiston with the intent of challenging him, and my Tyrant Guard get into b2b, since they both occur at the beginning of the fight subphase, can I, as turn player, choose to apply the Lash Whip before the challenge?

[gloomfang]

Oct 9, 2012 12:46:59 GMT Raven said:

Ok, follow up question. If I charge Mephiston with the intent of challenging him, and my Tyrant Guard get into b2b, since they both occur at the beginning of the fight subphase, can I, as turn player, choose to apply the Lash Whip before the challenge?

Pretty much. They are all "at the begining of the Fight Subphase". One of the new quirks with whips.

[coredump]

Not as I recall.
IIRC challenges is something you *do* at the beginning of the phase, but lash whips are just a result of a condition.

So, if you are in base contact with a whip at the beginning of the fight sub phase, you go at I1; regardless of what any player does after that.

Conversely, if you are not in base at the beginning, then accepting a challenge from a character with whip will not effect you until the next turn.

[gloomfang]

Oct 9, 2012 16:38:28 GMT coredump said:

Not as I recall.
IIRC challenges is something you *do* at the beginning of the phase, but lash whips are just a result of a condition.

So, if you are in base contact with a whip at the beginning of the fight sub phase, you go at I1; regardless of what any player does after that.

Conversely, if you are not in base at the beginning, then accepting a challenge from a character with whip will not effect you until the next turn.

I don't have the rule book on me right now, but I know that MSS has the same verbage as challanges as they definitly do go off at the same time.

So:
Page 81 – Mindshackle Scarabs.
Change the first sentence to read “At the start of the Fight subphase,
after charges have been made, but before any blows are
struck, randomly select a non-vehicle enemy model in base
contact with the bearer of the mindshackle scarabs.”

Vs.

Q: If a model with a lash whip is slain by enemy models not in base
contact and at a higher Initiative step, when do the enemy models that
were initially in base contact and affected by the lash whip (and
therefore reduced to Initiative 1) actually fight? (p83)
A: The effects of the whip coils/lash whips take place at the
beginning of the Fight sub-phase and last until the end of the
Assault phase, so the affected models would still fight at
Initiative step 1 that turn.

We have been saying that the "at the beginning" = "At the start ". That would mean the same time. If people want to split hairs how would you split this particular hair to say lash comes first? Otherwise all effects that go off simo are decided by the players who turn it is.

[lickitor]

So this means.. if issuing a challenge caused you to replace something in BtB contact with lashwhips with the character at the back of the unit, does the model that was now moved to the back still fight at initiative 1, even though it's no longer in contact with the model holding the lash whip?

[gloomfang]

Oct 9, 2012 18:38:49 GMT lickitor said:

So this means.. if issuing a challenge caused you to replace something in BtB contact with lashwhips with the character at the back of the unit, does the model that was now moved to the back still fight at initiative 1, even though it's no longer in contact with the model holding the lash whip?

I say it depends on if the lashwhips were triggered before the challange.

So it could go like this:
I assualt with a unit that has lash whips. One of them is in BtB with the only charater in the enemy unit. My charater does not have lash whips, lets say SL with some guard that have whips.

I choose to activate the whips first. That enemy charater is now I1.

Then I challange. It doesn't matter if he accepts or declines, he is now at I1 for the rest of the assualt.

OR

Same situation, but I declare challanges first. The opponent can accept or decline. Either way he will be moved out of BtB with the model with the lash whip. It is possible to then have a lash whip that is not in BtB contact with anyone.



Coredump's take on it is diffrent and he says that it is always situation 1 where lash does off before challanges.

[coredump]

But that is my point, you don't do anything to trigger lash whips, they just happen based on a condition at the beginning of the phase

You DO something to use MSS
You DO something to issue a challenge
Some has to decide what order those things get done.

As soon as the fight sub phase begins, all models in base with a whip are at I1, by definition.

[gloomfang]

It is an effect that has to be resolved at the begining of the fight subphase. It requires checking who is in BtB and applying an effect. How is that different from MSS?
Your basically saying that lash whips are not an effect or action, because the rules are very clear on how to resolve effects that go off at the same time.
Unless you can tell me the rule that says it happens before all other effects in the Fight subphase or that the beginning of the phase happens before the start of the phase.
Otherwise it falls to pg9 and the rules for Exceptions.

EDIT:

As soon as the fight sub phase begins, all models in base with a whip are at I1, by definition.

By what definition? The rule does not say "As soon as", or you would be right.

[coredump]

I don't know how to explain it any differently....

The Necron Lord must *do* something to activate the MSS.
The Tyranid Prime must *do* something to issue a challenge.

Since they can't be done at the exact same time, there must be an order to it happening.


Whips are not 'resolved', it is a simple matter of definition. If the model is in base... then it is I1. Nothing is 'done', nothing is 'resolved', it is simply a definition.

If you charge through terrain, you attack at I1. There is nothing to 'resolve', it is just how it is.
If you put wings on a HT, it is a FMC. Nothing 'resolves', it is a matter of definition.

If the rule required a die roll, or a decision, or for the player to do anything... you would have a point. But it is simply a definition.