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Post by carnogaunt on Sept 27, 2012 23:59:39 GMT
Bring back the -1/-2 to hit instead of some imaginary save that is over-ridden by 90% of the armour in the game! When you have modifiers to hit, they disproportionately affect units with varying Ballistic Skills. For example, a unit of Space Marines at BS4 would lose 25% of its hits when it shoots through cover (-1), but a Carnifex at BS3 would lose 33% of its hits when shooting through the same cover. A 5+ cover save affects shooting equally across all Ballistic Skills, reducing the number of casualties by 33%, but if you allow only one save, the number of casualties taken can only be proportional to cover OR armor, not both. Really the best solution (if you consider the current situation a problem) is to allow two saves, cover saves against hits and armor saves against wounds. Thus, all shooting would be proportional to Ballistic Skill, armor, and cover.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2012 0:20:00 GMT
Except that green tide would just shoot Draigo to pieces. By this argument, it's completely unfair that we can't out-shoot Necron and Tau. Besides, with 1s always failing and 6s always succeeding, draigo wouldn't have a "99%" success rate. Congratulations, you have missed my point. I take that back, because saying you missed my point implies you landed in the same zip code as my point; which you have not. This is why I find myself less and less inclined to debate here on TTH. I don't mind people vigorously defending their point but when even the mods are often condescending and jabbing it gets really old. Congratulations, I will not debate with you Yori, very afraid of being in a different zip code from your brilliance. -_-
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Sept 28, 2012 3:39:20 GMT
Congratulations, you have missed my point. I take that back, because saying you missed my point implies you landed in the same zip code as my point; which you have not. This is why I find myself less and less inclined to debate here on TTH. I don't mind people vigorously defending their point but when even the mods are often condescending and jabbing it gets really old. Congratulations, I will not debate with you Yori, very afraid of being in a different zip code from your brilliance. -_- I have to agree with this... Though, yori has always been this way, so its not entirely as shocking as some of the other mods when they do similar.
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Post by N.I.B. on Sept 28, 2012 6:09:19 GMT
I have to agree with this... Though, yori has always been this way, so its not entirely as shocking as some of the other mods when they do similar. That's pretty rich, coming from perhaps the most argumentative/touchiest guy on TTH. It seems we need nurglitch back, so we can all unite against a common enemy.
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Post by roxor08 on Sept 28, 2012 13:06:59 GMT
I have to agree with this... Though, yori has always been this way, so its not entirely as shocking as some of the other mods when they do similar. That's pretty rich, coming from perhaps the most argumentative/touchiest guy on TTH. It seems we need nurglitch back, so we can all unite against a common enemy. HAHAHAHA Funny, but I don't know if any of you really can judge any other of us on TTH....this is a forum and you never really even know who's behind writing these posts... That aside: I can see where Yori is coming from, but yeah... WS is kind of BS right now. Consider this: The stats that really define the threat and resilience any model, the ones you look at before anything else, are S and T. The 'representation of combat effectiveness' that WS used to be has been badly devalued by the current chart, to the point that higher values are almost irrelevant. Instead, everyone now hits about 50% of the time, and the *real* combat value of a unit is a function of the wound chart. S5 vs. T3? Oh yeah, you're doing good. As an example to illustrate this issue, lets imagine the biomorphs on genestealers included the following options: Muscle Glands (+4 points/model), increase Genestealer strength to 5. Survivor Glands (+4 points/model): Increase toughness to 5. Attacker Glands: (+4 points/model): Increase WS to 9. I can imagine taking the first two. The last? Nah, probably not. Try the same test on any basic unit in the game. For 18 points per, would you rather have a squad of marines at T5, or WS7? WS8? It only becomes relevant when it's so cartoonishly high that normal units go to 5+ hit. This is why the game has become so boring and lousy with shooting. Shooting still uses the *old* attack and damage charts, and it's a lot easier to get and use a S8 attack at range than it is in melee. Another thought exercise: Imagine you don't roll to hit in melee. You just automatically do A/2 hits (round up) each combat phase. Would there be any meaningful change to the dynamics of the game? I'm doubting it... AGREED. Well said maeloke. I couldn't agree more. Ultimately, my point is similar to his, but he was just more eloquent at saying it. I don't disagree, however, that it would "break" the game of 40k. It would significantly impact how 40k is played and make combat pretty much as irrelevant as it is now. More than 1/2 the armies out there (that are competitive at the tournament level) will just take their opponents out to the gun range. No skill involved, just take as many high Str. low AP weaponry as possible. Combat takes much more finesse. And while I'm not saying a combat focused army can't win in tournaments (not saying that at all, many great players here on TTH have proven that statement wrong) I am saying that it'd be nice for melee strong armies were actually good at combat....***half of my attacks hit you just because, what? I'm standing right next to you and my arms have large knife-like weapons on my arms (and that's because I was genetically engineered to be a HIGHLY SKILLED melee fighter), but I just happened to miss you with my right arm, but hit you with my left arm.....really? Half?
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Post by maeloke on Sept 28, 2012 14:27:39 GMT
It seems we need nurglitch back, so we can all unite against a common enemy. Hehe, yeah, I was just wondering what became of him. Probably off on some CSM board running the new Hellbrutes through a hypothetical game theory algorithm. Roxor08: Glad you agree. While it's clear GW is committed to the devaluation of WS, My hope is that non-shooty dexes released for 6e will start to acknowledge how irrelevant WS is and stop using it as a justification for increasing points cost. The new Chaos codex seems to be bearing this out - 'zerkers with their WS 5 got cheaper, while the plague marines with T5 got more expensive.
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Sept 28, 2012 17:08:54 GMT
I have to agree with this... Though, yori has always been this way, so its not entirely as shocking as some of the other mods when they do similar. That's pretty rich, coming from perhaps the most argumentative/touchiest guy on TTH. It seems we need nurglitch back, so we can all unite against a common enemy. Argumentative definitely. That's what happens in a forum when people have conflicting ideas. touchy, probably. I get trolled easily. Not afraid to admit if someone doesn't like me here I don't feel very good even though I have no freaking clue who any of you are. I have spent many years here, and if someone I know says, "your a moron" then yes, I will be touchy. condescending, rarely (I do have moments though). Yori condescending? Often. Almost exclusively when someone disagrees with him... especially when its about warfare and the history of warfare. Are we really going to deny that? It's part of his charm... @yori: Still love you
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Post by Psychichobo on Sept 28, 2012 18:59:00 GMT
Eh, angry charm is all fun when you've known the person for a while, but imagine a newbie stumbling onto the thread. Doesn't look good.
Anyway, I was wondering how well 40k would work if it had a system like Warmahordes where you have a separate stat for being hit as well as hitting. I know I hero-worship that game a lot, but it was a fairly interesting setup and did allow for a difference between defensive and offensive fighting styles.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2012 19:47:10 GMT
Opponent's WS is equal: 4+ Opponent's WS is less: 3+ Opponent's WS is more: 5+ Opponent's WS is half: 2+ Opponent's WS is double: 6 I'd like that
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Post by maeloke on Sept 28, 2012 20:23:37 GMT
Opponent's WS is equal: 4+ Opponent's WS is less: 3+ Opponent's WS is more: 5+ Opponent's WS is half: 2+ Opponent's WS is double: 6 I'd like that I’d like that, too. Under that scheme, warriors, raveners, and genestealers would actually be competitively priced. Of course, it would make tyrants nigh invulnerable in CC (standard MeQ would need 6 to hit, 6 to wound). I’m totally comfortable with that, but the rest of the 40k community might differ
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Sept 28, 2012 20:55:20 GMT
Opponent's WS is equal: 4+ Opponent's WS is less: 3+ Opponent's WS is more: 5+ Opponent's WS is half: 2+ Opponent's WS is double: 6 I'd like that So, bloodthirsters are indestructible > When your next to something, its hard to miss. It is very hard to miss, especially with something like a MC. I think 5+ being the worst you can do is appropriate. Also, when gants need 5's against everything, you would be happy with that? Considering they are on top of the space marine... and are barely wounding them... but hey it makes sense I guess... The current to hit chart is fine i think in representing what is, with the exception of needing 3's with WS10 2's would make more sense on most models.
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Post by Davor on Sept 28, 2012 21:22:33 GMT
One thing I don't like about WS anymore, is since it's basically useless as was mentioned before, We, meaning Tyranids, have to pay for high WS. I think I would gladly trade in a reduction of WS of one or two points of WS, for like 20 or 30 points for our MC. That is one reason why our MC are high, we have high WS.
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Post by swarmy on Sept 28, 2012 21:30:36 GMT
Opponent's WS is equal: 4+ Opponent's WS is less: 3+ Opponent's WS is more: 5+ Opponent's WS is half: 2+ Opponent's WS is double: 6 I'd like that I’d like that, too. Under that scheme, warriors, raveners, and genestealers would actually be competitively priced. Of course, it would make tyrants nigh invulnerable in CC (standard MeQ would need 6 to hit, 6 to wound). I’m totally comfortable with that, but the rest of the 40k community might differ A hive tyrant living up to the fluff? I'd be down for that He currently get's clubbed like a baby seal by every single power weapon riddled dedicated assault unit I've assaulted him into so I can only see it being an improvement. *not talking about a paladin blob or something of the like, I do have some tactical common sense
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2012 21:34:10 GMT
Go spar against a black belt and see how easy it is to land a blow on someone standing a couple feet from you. I'd imagine Bloodthirsters are just as good at deflecting blows as they are landing them. Near indestructible in CC? Maybe, but hey . . . that's why you generally shouldn't charge 6 meter killing machines swinging weapons larger than your entire body. Being an MC wouldn't make it any easier. Imagine trying to get close enough to hit with your 12" combat knife when the MC is swinging 2 meter blades around . . .
I'd be fine with that, they are more skilled fighters than Gants after all. It would make our high WS' worth something too. What's our WS' of 6-9 do currently? Not much.
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Post by Davor on Sept 28, 2012 21:35:05 GMT
I’d like that, too. Under that scheme, warriors, raveners, and genestealers would actually be competitively priced. Of course, it would make tyrants nigh invulnerable in CC (standard MeQ would need 6 to hit, 6 to wound). I’m totally comfortable with that, but the rest of the 40k community might differ A hive tyrant living up to the fluff? I'd be down for that He currently get's clubbed like a baby seal by every single power weapon riddled dedicated assault unit I've assaulted him into so I can only see it being an improvement. *not talking about a paladin blob or something of the like, I do have some tactical common sense Yeah again that would be the Space Marine comunity crying like a baby. Funny they are not crying about Overwatch and Snapfire, making thier armies to play easier.
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