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Post by Illithid on Sept 24, 2012 21:43:56 GMT
Berzerkers have been WS5 for a couple editions now. It matters when characters fight characters. At the start of 3rd edition, almost nothing had any value over WS 5, which was boring. Now the different personalities are differently skilled to combat different opponents. It makes sense. The system works just fine as it is. Otherwise, already tough characters would never die, and the weenies would never stand a chance. You'd see everyone taking Swarmlords, Bloodthirsters, and Avatars and little else. Boring. Umm...what? 67% chance to score a hit for the big guy (and 83% kill) vs 33% chance to score a hit for the little guy, and a 17% chance to cause a wound for the little guy. Please, enlighten me as to how the odds are better for the little guy here?? However, if it dropped to 5+ to hit sooner, it would be more realistic. If your WS was 3 points above your foes (say Genestealer Vs. Imperial Guardsman for example), they would need a 5 to hit and the Stealer needing 2's to hit (perhaps if they roll a one, they have to roll 5+ to hit on the re-roll). As it stands now, they still only need a 4. It is not a huge change to the current system, but would still reflect models that are better in CC actually performing significantly better. I understand that the "little guy" needs a chance to strike, but WS should mean something. |
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Sept 24, 2012 23:21:26 GMT
I like the WS chart as is with one exception.
Currently, a model with more than double WS (so WS+1) is only hit on 5's. That makes perfect sense, the models are right new to each other...
But how is it with the exception in Kharn the betrayer, there isnt a model in the game that can hit on 2's? Now, the models that SHOULD be able to hit on 2's are few and fleeting... and that makes it all the more unique.
Then again... Paroxysm exists... but seriously, thats pretty unique to tyranids.
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Post by WestRider on Sept 24, 2012 23:26:39 GMT
Umm...what? 67% chance to score a hit for the big guy (and 83% kill) vs 33% chance to score a hit for the little guy, and a 17% chance to cause a wound for the little guy. Please, enlighten me as to how the odds are better for the little guy here?? The little guy actually gets a chance at all here. The way 2nd Ed worked was a roll-off system instead of rolling against a chart, and with a 6 point difference in Weapon Skills, the WS9 Character is pretty much going to be the only one striking unless he gets all ones and the WS dude gets a six. The switch to the current system was one of the best changes made in 3rd. Now, the issue as I see it is that WS alone is not a sufficient defense. A Character with high WS, but otherwise mediocre defensive stats is going to get ground down eventually anyhow. But someone like Abaddon, who has a good Toughness and Sv on top of that, can wade through a whole Platoon on his own, no problem. If you change the WS chart so that DeathLeaper works like he should, the BloodThirster, Swarmlord, and Avatar become hideously broken. Since there are only a few Models for whom this really becomes a problem, I think it would be better to introduce special Rules for those specific Models rather than re-working from scratch a base system that's worked quite well for the past 14 years or so. Let the DeathLeaper's Chameleonic Skin force opponents to re-roll successful Hits or something, for instance. Now that Vehicles are WS1 when Moving, extending the other end of the table runs into problems there. If WS5 starts hitting WS1 on 2+, that's enough to start throwing that system out of whack, and if there's anything that Autohits WS1, that Model just becomes instant death for most Vehicles. |
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Post by yoritomo on Sept 25, 2012 2:03:57 GMT
Even so in 2nd WS9 vs WS3 would have been a decisive win for the better fighter where as now the odds are better for the little guy. Yes, but there were systems in place to make up for this. A horde of guys could still take care of one person. With the changes you guys are suggesting a horde army would never be able to be an army with characters. Think about it. A green tide army would only have one model (the Warboss) that could hit Draigo. Is that a game you want to play? Draigo alone Vs. 149 orks and Draigo wins 99% of the time. No tactics. No stratagem. Draigo just wins because he's Ws 7 and orks are not. That doesn't sound fun to me. In one on one combat it makes sense to have large penalty for the skill difference. But how hard is it to hit someone when there are two or three friends swinging with you? Should you need a 6 to hit anyone if you're swinging from behind? Is Lilith so good that she can block attacks from three people, two of which she can't see? And let's look at characters for a second. Regular characters are usually around Ws 3-4. Characters are usually around Ws 5-6. Special Characters can top Ws 6. So looking at it this way characters hit normal troops on a 3+ and special characters hit normal characters on a 3+ as well. The only time the chart really hoses someone is when a special character fights normal troops, and even then the special character is only hit on a 5+. In the end I think that the weapon skill chart is a decent representation on how mass combat should work. It's quick, easy, and speeds up the game. I think it's one of the better things Games Workshop has done with 40K. |
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Post by gigasnail on Sept 25, 2012 2:36:25 GMT
Is Lilith so good that she can block attacks from three people, two of which she can't see? well, yeah. she's supposed to be, anyway. lolfluff. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2012 2:41:23 GMT
Even so in 2nd WS9 vs WS3 would have been a decisive win for the better fighter where as now the odds are better for the little guy. Think about it. A green tide army would only have one model (the Warboss) that could hit Draigo. Is that a game you want to play? Draigo alone Vs. 149 orks and Draigo wins 99% of the time. No tactics. No stratagem. Draigo just wins because he's Ws 7 and orks are not. Except that green tide would just shoot Draigo to pieces. By this argument, it's completely unfair that we can't out-shoot Necron and Tau. Besides, with 1s always failing and 6s always succeeding, draigo wouldn't have a "99%" success rate. |
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Post by Illithid on Sept 25, 2012 4:32:44 GMT
How is a 5+ to hit OP if you are double the persons WS - I can see the error with needing a 6+ to hit, but I think the bar should be definitely lower for the 5+ (that is still 1/3 of your attacks!) and you should have an easier time to hit (such as a 2+).
Yoritomo, by your logic (being that there are bodies everywhere swinging at you), Orks firing all their bullets are bound to hit the enemy moving towards them when they are shooting easier than the current 5+.
I think if GW want a more cinematic game, they should make CC more cinematic! Lilith should be a whirlwind of blades that blocks, parries and thrusts her way with deadly grace through CC. A Bloodthirster should be a monstrosity that cleaves lesser foes out of the way as they swarm over him, shattering their CC weapons when they try to block.
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Sept 25, 2012 5:04:59 GMT
Think about it. A green tide army would only have one model (the Warboss) that could hit Draigo. Is that a game you want to play? Draigo alone Vs. 149 orks and Draigo wins 99% of the time. No tactics. No stratagem. Draigo just wins because he's Ws 7 and orks are not. Except that green tide would just shoot Draigo to pieces. By this argument, it's completely unfair that we can't out-shoot Necron and Tau. Besides, with 1s always failing and 6s always succeeding, draigo wouldn't have a "99%" success rate. Why is shooting relevant in a conversation about close combat and the effectiveness of WS... |
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Post by yoritomo on Sept 25, 2012 12:56:01 GMT
Except that green tide would just shoot Draigo to pieces. By this argument, it's completely unfair that we can't out-shoot Necron and Tau. Besides, with 1s always failing and 6s always succeeding, draigo wouldn't have a "99%" success rate. Congratulations, you have missed my point. I take that back, because saying you missed my point implies you landed in the same zip code as my point; which you have not. My point is that any system that lets one model win a game just because of one stat is a bad system. Draigo would win againts any number of orks in close combat given enough time. Don't believe me, let's do some math: You should be able to get around 27 boys in close combat around Draigo (give or take). That's 81 attacks, of which only 13 hit because of your new Ws chart. Draigo is T5 Vs a basic ork's S3, so only two of those hits should wound. And Draigo is a terminator, so he'll save those wounds 5/6ths of the time. After everything is said and done Drago could take one wound every three turns. I think Draigo winning 99% of the time sounds about right. But let's play your "the orks would just shoot him" game. The problem with this argument is that it is a second order effect of a bad system. Because orks must kill Draigo by shooting they can never field a pure close combat army (due to the fact they will never know if they will play against Draigo). Any system that removes viable armies from the current meta is bad and needs to be thoroughly playtested, and this idea obviously hasn't. Then there is the fact that there is more than just Draigo in an army. If those 2000 points of orks must concentrate fire on Draigo then there's over 1700 points of Grey Knights that they are not shooting at. And let's face it, killing Draigo with shooting isn't exactly a given. Draigo and a squad of paladins is one of the most durable units in the game. How many times have you seen whole armies shoot a Draigo and only do one or two wounds? Changing the Ws table would be bad. While it might feel more fluffy, it would break the game. And nobody has fun playing a broken game. |
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Post by zephoid on Sept 25, 2012 13:45:40 GMT
Double WS should have been 5s to hit you, double plus 1 should have been 2s to hit them. Double+1 is incredibly rare and reserved for characters that are almost gods among warriors. Lelith, Swarmlord, Death Leaper, Bloodthirsters, and the avatar are the only characters in the game that are double+1 marines. They should not be missing at all, but 1/6 chance of missing is acceptable for game terms. Double WS to for hits on 5s means that most 200+ point melee-based characters (the ones legends are built on often) are harder to hit than your average joe. I really cant think of one OP WS8 character (vect, tyrant, GK assassins, few demon HQs) That should be correct. Drago, while good, probably depends more on his armor to deflect attacks than parrying with a hammer.
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Post by forteh on Sept 25, 2012 13:48:14 GMT
Rather than a change to make it harder to hit higher WS, would a 2+ to hit for a +3 WS difference make WS more of a significant stat if that makes sense? Obviously this would make genestealers a fair bit more potent (which fluff wise they should be) but would perhaps help offset their high points cost vs. squishyness.
Or perhaps a mechanic similar to the current BS6+ that allows an attempt to reroll to hit if you roll a miss; in 2nd ed. the high BS scores were used because of the minus to hits (cover/moving etc.), not so much these days.
edit: I would tend to agree with zephoid in that draigo alone doesn't actually deal a huge amount of wounds (ID from force weapon aside) but soaks up more damage than should be possible - IMHO this is what makes him OP.
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Post by WestRider on Sept 25, 2012 23:40:51 GMT
Remember, guys, if double WS+1 hits on 2+, that means WS3 or better hits Flat Out Vehicles on 2+.
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Post by Raven on Sept 26, 2012 0:30:16 GMT
Remember, guys, if double WS+1 hits on 2+, that means WS3 or better hits Flat Out Vehicles on 2+. As someone with no vehicles in their entire Codex, I am absolutely fine with that happening. |
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Post by fleetofclaw on Sept 26, 2012 0:42:37 GMT
Double WS should have been 5s to hit you, double plus 1 should have been 2s to hit them. Double+1 is incredibly rare and reserved for characters that are almost gods among warriors. Lelith, Swarmlord, Death Leaper, Bloodthirsters, and the avatar are the only characters in the game that are double+1 marines. They should not be missing at all, but 1/6 chance of missing is acceptable for game terms. Double WS to for hits on 5s means that most 200+ point melee-based characters (the ones legends are built on often) are harder to hit than your average joe. I really cant think of one OP WS8 character (vect, tyrant, GK assassins, few demon HQs) That should be correct. Drago, while good, probably depends more on his armor to deflect attacks than parrying with a hammer. This. To say that this would be overpowered is hilarious. This is a shooting man's game now anyway, and *real* assault armies don't give an s about their model's WS, which shows that something is wrong with the stat. Sent from my Nexus S 4G using proboards |
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Post by maeloke on Sept 26, 2012 4:24:11 GMT
I can see where Yori is coming from, but yeah... WS is kind of BS right now.
Consider this: The stats that really define the threat and resilience any model, the ones you look at before anything else, are S and T. The 'representation of combat effectiveness' that WS used to be has been badly devalued by the current chart, to the point that higher values are almost irrelevant. Instead, everyone now hits about 50% of the time, and the *real* combat value of a unit is a function of the wound chart. S5 vs. T3? Oh yeah, you're doing good.
As an example to illustrate this issue, lets imagine the biomorphs on genestealers included the following options:
Muscle Glands (+4 points/model), increase Genestealer strength to 5.
Survivor Glands (+4 points/model): Increase toughness to 5.
Attacker Glands: (+4 points/model): Increase WS to 9.
I can imagine taking the first two. The last? Nah, probably not. Try the same test on any basic unit in the game. For 18 points per, would you rather have a squad of marines at T5, or WS7? WS8? It only becomes relevant when it's so cartoonishly high that normal units go to 5+ hit.
This is why the game has become so boring and lousy with shooting. Shooting still uses the *old* attack and damage charts, and it's a lot easier to get and use a S8 attack at range than it is in melee.
Another thought exercise: Imagine you don't roll to hit in melee. You just automatically do A/2 hits (round up) each combat phase. Would there be any meaningful change to the dynamics of the game? I'm doubting it...
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