Bone sword questions

[ranmafan]

Hi All!

Ever since the new FAQ came out, I've had some questions about everyone's favourite Melee option (outside of Rending claws) - Boneswords.

1) If a Tyranid causes an unsaved wound with a Bonesword, and it fails to cause Instant Death (enemy passed Ld test), can it still be saved by FnP? Since the bonesword doesn't use the instant-death rule UNTIL the enemy fails its leadership.

2) How many leadership tests can be taken per brood per enemy model/unit?

e.g - Three Shrikes cause 2 wounds each to a unit of Crisis Suits - I roll To Wounds separately so each shrike is calculated separately.

Assuming Suit #1 fails its 1st wound Ld and dies, wound Shrike #1's 2nd unsaved wound then cause an Ld test on Suit #2?

And assuming Suit #2 survives the Ld test and takes a wound from Shrike #2, would it have to roll Ld again since it's coming from a second model with Boneswords? (let's assume it has enough wounds to survive, purely for rule-clarity)

I'm pretty sure each Shrike with Boneswords would definitely only cause 1 Ld test per enemy model wounded though, since the wording is "One or more unsaved wounds" - that much is clear. But I don't know what happens when wounds carry over and when 2 different models start causing wounds.

Opinions and ideas?

Edit: I ran a search for boneswords before posting, but couldn't find anything conclusive. Trawling the interwebs raised the 'resolving multi-wound' rules in 6th ed allowed for multiple Ld tests, once per wound(s) per different enemy model per Tyranid unit.

[gloomfang]

Here are some answers:

1) Highly debated. General TO rulings say that if it does not ID then FNP can be used.

2) You can cause the test once per Bone Sword wielding model per enemy model. To use your example the second crisis suit would need to make an ID check for the second wound from the first shrike. He would then need to make anouther ID check for the second shrike.

[fragile]

1. Agree with Gloom, its a debate that is ongoing and will probably require a FAQ from GW. Currently I would go with it could FNP since the wound didn't cause ID.

2. Wounds are now allocated and resolved singly. Therefore each wound will require an ID test. (This is a change from 5th). The model causing the test is irrelevant btw. The wounds come from a bonesword and the bonesword is causing the ID not the models.

[coredump]

I agree with Fragile

[ranmafan]

I think gloomfang's explanation works the best for me.

The codex words it such that, in my interpretation, no Tyranid model can cause more than 1 Ld test per enemy model since it says 'One or more wounds per Tyranid with boneswords' (paraphrased), and that the enemy model must 'take a Leadership test', but doesn't state 'One test per wound' or something to that effect, leading me to believe that even if a Shrike caused 5 wounds to a single enemy model it would only need to pass one Ld test.

Multi wounds are resolved separately in 6th ed, but since the damage is coming from the same source(s) I think the codex ruling overrides the multiple Ld tests in this case. Sounds too OP otherwise, and Cruddace wouldn't want that....

[fragile]

"If a model suffers one or more unsaved wounds in close combat from a Tyranid with a bonesword, it must immediately pass a LD test or suffer instant death"


Don't paraphrase rules, as you tend to lose things if you do. There is no "per Tyranid" in the rule.

The key here is a "model took a wound from a Tyranid armed with a bonesword"

If the answer is yes, then it must take a LD test.

Multi wounds are resolved separately in 6th ed, but since the damage is coming from the same source(s) I think the codex ruling overrides the multiple Ld tests in this case. Sounds too OP otherwise, and Cruddace wouldn't want that....

There is no conflict with a codex for it to override. If you allocate an unsaved wound to a model, it must test leadership or ID. You then allocate the next unsaved wound. In 5th it would have been all wounds allocated at once and you would only have 1 LD test. In 6th wound allocation has changed a bit. They may change the wording on Boneswords with a new codex.

Cruddace has nothing to do with this.

[Raven]

The "one or more wounds" part was written for 5th edition would allocation rules and is now irrelevant in 6th edition.

[TheContortionist]

::)reading the rules

[coredump]

And I still agree with Fragile...

[Jabberwocky]

So are we saying now, that when my tyrant wounds a Trygon 3 times, it tests 3 times? Or is this purely for mixed units where saves come after allocation?

[gloomfang]

Might have to reverse my thoughts: I posted the question to Dakka to see what the hardcore rules lawyers think. Here is what I think about it now.
The issue is that wounds are not allocated like they were in 5th when the Nid Codex was writen. Wounds were allocated and saved all at once. In 6th there is now a pool.

So the arguement goes:

Nid player with 2 warriors charges a unit of multiwound models without FNP or Invuln (to make it easier).
Lets say each warrior causes two wounds.
Now the rules in 6th say to allocate the wound to the closest model. As the models are all multiwound and we have a weapon that can cause ID we need to allocate one at a time.
No armor save so that model takes a wound.
The model then makes an Ld check for ID. Lets say he passes it.
The next wound is then allocated to the closest model (the one that just took a wound).

Now this is where it gets sticky...
He has now just taken an unsaved wound from a model with a bone sword. That means that it forces anouther LD check for ID. The rule does not say one test per model or anything like that. The changes in allocating wounds make it required.

I didn't think it would work that way, but it looks like RAW will force an ID test for each wound allocated to a multiwound model from a model with a bone sword.

[Davor]

Sept 19, 2012 14:37:46 GMT TheContortionist said:

1)yes. you can take feel no pain for all wounds now. even perils.

That is sooooo wrong. You CAN'T take FnP for all wounds. If anything causes ID like X2 the Strength or any weapon that says, ID, or (could be wrong here) AP 1, and 2 weapons you can't take no FnP. (Please correct me on that one please.)

[fragile]

Only ID stops FNP now, Davor. The AP of an attack has no bearing.

So are we saying now, that when my tyrant wounds a Trygon 3 times, it tests 3 times? Or is this purely for mixed units where saves come after allocation?

Yes.

[fleetofclaw]

Sept 19, 2012 23:14:32 GMT fragile said:

Only ID stops FNP now, Davor. The AP of an attack has no bearing.

So are we saying now, that when my tyrant wounds a Trygon 3 times, it tests 3 times? Or is this purely for mixed units where saves come after allocation?

Yes.

Holy spore pods that just made my shrikes that much more horrifying.

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using proboards

[Davor]

Thanks Fragile. Got rules mixed up again.