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Post by maleficus on Sept 16, 2012 21:31:51 GMT
First things first, I thought I should say hello to everybody since this is my first post on this forum. "Hello Everyone!"
So, as a brief introduction, I of course play Tyranids and have done so for about a year. I have amassed about 1500 points worth, and the games I play range between 500 and 1500 points. My primary opponents play Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, and Necrons.
Against the Tau and Necrons I have little troubles. Eldar prove more of a challenge, but if I'm smart and roll well enough then I prevail often enough against those three.
The subject of my grief is the Dark Eldar. Of the last three 1500 point games I have played against DE, I have only won once (and then by technicality only. We were playing The Relic and I managed to grab it with a squad of gants. The entirety of my force was obliterated except for the gants who passed their IB test and ran out of the DE's range.) Every game feels like I'm losing half of my force before I even get to fire a shot, no matter what I try. Here's what he runs:
Archon and four Trueborn in a Venom
Eldrad and five Pathfinders
Haemonculus with a squad of ten Mandrakes
Three squads of ten Warriors in Raiders
My first strategy was to run a fast attack list with psyker support, but Blaster/Darklance fire pulled apart my Raveners/Warriors while my psykers were chipped away by perils (I hate runes of warding). On my second attempt I tried to overwhelm him with a swarm list and eschewed psykers for Hive Guard and the like, but because of night shields (I believe that's what they're called) I lost all my reliable transport poppers before they got in range.
In my most recent attempt I tried to do everything I could to bring down those transports: 3 squads of Hive Guard, a Tyrannofex, two squads of Warriors with Venom Cannons, and a Flyrant w/ devourers supported by a Tervigon and a squad of gants. We played Hammer and Anvil, he stole initiative - by the time I was in range with anything, I was down one squad of Hive Guard, one squad of warriors, and the Tervigon was half dead (plus his gant production was expended). Within two turns I had destroyed the Venom, Archon, Trueborn, and all three Raiders, but had lost everything save the squad of gants running for their lives with the relic in the opposite direction.
Though I won by victory points, it still feels like I lost. I feel powerless fighting DE, and I don't know how to compete against them. I'm a relatively new player, and any advice you guys could give me would be greatly appreciated.
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syu
Gaunt
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Post by syu on Sept 17, 2012 13:49:25 GMT
Ah yes the rock to our scissors, the de is the nightmare of every nid player... Not impossible but against a veteran player, the game is surely an uphill battle...
What I learned, having been devoured myself due to de's insane shooting, is to strike first and fast. Alpha strike the de army to a point that you reduce his firepower to half by the time he starts shooting... Some key units to accomplish this:
1. Ymgarls: I play with at least 2 units 8 model strong. When they come out make sure they encircle a venom with wyches. Attack with a plus one strength, most likely you'll cause 2 hull points and hopefully do not make the venom explode. With the wyches with no where to go, you auto kill 2 units in one go
2. Zoans with mycetic spore. When this plops down I use the zoan to kill a 3 hull unit such as a ravager...and the lash whip of the spore can kill another venom. This unit can kill off 2 vehicles...
3. Flyrants with two devourers with worms. 12 tlinked shots can easily destroy another soft de vehicle..I play with 2 in my current tourney list
Make sure that one of your flyrants have the hive command rule so that you'll be entering reserves on round two on a 2+..
Important note: make sure you'll survive the first turn while waiting for your reserve units to arrive! New rule is that if no more models at end of a game turn you auto lose!
With these units entering turn 2 you can get max 8 kills (6 vehicles and 2 troops)...enough to cripple the de offensive power...
Good luck!
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Post by maleficus on Sept 17, 2012 19:47:42 GMT
Thanks for the advice!
I guess my next question would be this: Isn't the Zoanthropes in a spore a huge gamble? Runes of Warding will make them fail their psychic tests very often and they don't have the wounds to suck up a few perils like a Tervigon does.
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Post by Psychichobo on Sept 17, 2012 19:50:22 GMT
Another problem Zoans might have would be the Night Shields ruining their range. Not likely, but a bad scatter might make that happen.
I suppose an alternative to Zoans would be, if you can afford it FOC-wise, some devourer gaunts. Devilgaunts will rip up anything AV10 and require a LOT of firepower to completely remove.
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Post by fragile on Sept 18, 2012 3:14:50 GMT
In my most recent attempt I tried to do everything I could to bring down those transports: 3 squads of Hive Guard, a Tyrannofex, two squads of Warriors with Venom Cannons, and a Flyrant w/ devourers supported by a Tervigon and a squad of gants. We played Hammer and Anvil, he stole initiative - by the time I was in range with anything, I was down one squad of Hive Guard, one squad of warriors, and the Tervigon was half dead (plus his gant production was expended). Within two turns I had destroyed the Venom, Archon, Trueborn, and all three Raiders, but had lost everything save the squad of gants running for their lives with the relic in the opposite direction. Though I won by victory points, it still feels like I lost. I feel powerless fighting DE, and I don't know how to compete against them. I'm a relatively new player, and any advice you guys could give me would be greatly appreciated. So you played the worst possible scenario (Hammer and Anvil) with him stealing INI and you still won? Sounds like you did good. I would change up your list there from a Tyrannofex to another Tervigon. Leave both with the base powers and use Onslaught as much as possible early. The key for a DE player to win is their mobility in their vehicles. Kill the vehicles and they crumple like paper. |
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Post by bobnik on Sept 18, 2012 7:31:30 GMT
Last time I played DE I used the following list: HQ: Hive Tyrant w 2x TL BL Devourers, Wings, Old Adversary and Hive Commander + Biomancy x2 Elite: Doom of Malan'tai in a Mycetic Spore Troop: 10x Termagants 12x Termagants w Devourers (outflanking) Tervigon w Stinger Salvo, Crushing Claws, Toxin Sacs + Biomancy x3 Fast Attack: Harpy w Stranglethorn Cannon, Stinger Salvo, Regeneration Heavy Support: Carnifex w 2x TL BL Devourers in a Mycetic Spore (TL Deathspitters) Carnifex w 2x TL BL Devourers in a Mycetic Spore (TL Deathspitters) =1500 pts The turn 2 alpha strike is quite brutal - especially if you get your fexes + spores within 6" of the flyrant for that juicy preferred enemy  |
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syu
Gaunt
Posts: 30
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Post by syu on Sept 18, 2012 13:01:59 GMT
If zoans are not your cup of tea, there are many options to go witj a
Spore: as mentioned dev gaunts will work or even a carni with 2 sets of tl dev...
The reason i take zoans are the chances of meeting other armies such as sm
With landraiders or the on-foot ten man paladin gk squads...
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Post by jahatch42878 on Sept 19, 2012 20:15:49 GMT
I have to agree with Fragile, there, you sound like you did pretty good against a good opponent, you admit to being relatively new, and if i was winning more than 1/2 my games on average I'd be pretty content to occasionally find an enemy that i have a hard time with... also, in the last game, let's say you don't get the initiative stolen from you, then do you think it would have been a very different outcome?
Also, did you deep strike/tunnel anything? I think that disrupting the DE plan is just as important as them disrupting yours... and as much as DE have a lot going for them, as everyone has said, if you can dismantle their mobility and their transports, then you are on the right track, so I don't think you should give up yet.. and although yes, you said you won by a technicality, a win is a win is a win... maybe not a great moral victory, but that is okay.. There is only War afterall....
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Post by maleficus on Sept 19, 2012 23:24:26 GMT
In my earlier attempts I was deep striking units like the doom, warriors, or gants in spores, but in the most recent battle I was talking about my whole army was slogging it.
After reading everyone's suggestions though I think my next try will definitely involve lots of deep striking/outflanking units. My thanks to everyone for their advice.
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Post by vivi22 on Sept 20, 2012 1:20:46 GMT
Well, I play both Tyranids and Dark Eldar, so while it means I've never played one against the other, I think I have enough experience playing a bit of both to offer advice that's kind of useful.  But no, I definitely agree with the others on a lot of things. I'd definitely avoid Zoanthropes. They're expensive, their best attack doesn't have much range, you've got to pass a psychic test, and they probably won't survive that long under heavy fire if you deep strike them in. Then again, something like Devilgaunts won't survive long either after you pop a Venom or Raider with them, but they're the same range and more reliable given their volume of fire and no psychic test. A Zoanthrope might pop a transport when it drops in, but devilgaunts almost certainly will. Same goes for Hive Guard covering your back lines, and they have the benefit of also being cheaper than Zoans, and being able to find cover and still shoot effectively. They also deny jink saves, but with flicker fields I doubt it would matter too much. And definitely deepstrike, outflank, run Flyrants, and whatever else you can do to get in close fast and pop their transports. If I'm playing DE, I'm usually relying on Venoms and Raiders to get me where I want to go fast, but if they pop open before I reach my target, I'm foot slogging it and I have no speed advantage doing that, plus I lose the added protection of having a transport. Mind you, DE vehicles are fragile, so I fully expect them to be destroyed before the game is over, but I probably don't want you deep striking on top of them and killing them on turn two. Aside from Flyrants and Tervigons, I'd probably want to avoid MC's as well. I might be able to see the use in Trygon's/Primes deepstriking and shooting, but they're expensive and they play to the strengths of the DE player rather than denying him the advantage poison weapons grant him. If I have the choice, I'd rather him wasting Poison shots on units that most other armies would be wounding on 4+ anyway. That said, if you played that scenario and won then you did well. If I had been in your shoes I might have been crapping my pants by the end of turn 1 with the number of things that seemed to go his way. |
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Post by N.I.B. on Sept 20, 2012 9:32:21 GMT
Last time I played DE I used the following list: HQ: Hive Tyrant w 2x TL BL Devourers, Wings, Old Adversary and Hive Commander + Biomancy x2 Elite: Doom of Malan'tai in a Mycetic Spore Troop: 10x Termagants 12x Termagants w Devourers (outflanking) Tervigon w Stinger Salvo, Crushing Claws, Toxin Sacs + Biomancy x3 Fast Attack: Harpy w Stranglethorn Cannon, Stinger Salvo, Regeneration Heavy Support: Carnifex w 2x TL BL Devourers in a Mycetic Spore (TL Deathspitters) Carnifex w 2x TL BL Devourers in a Mycetic Spore (TL Deathspitters) =1500 pts The turn 2 alpha strike is quite brutal - especially if you get your fexes + spores within 6" of the flyrant for that juicy preferred enemy This is a good template for an anti-DE list. But it has a flaw - it has to start with a few units on the table, and you can't lose them. If you go only with 2 units (10 Termagants and the Tervigon) you risk being tabled turn 1 or top of turn 2, depending on who gets the first turn. And if you throw in the Flyrant and/or Harpy you'll probably lose one of them or both turn 1. Maybe deploying 10 Termagants, Tervigon and Harpy is enough though. Remember that Blessings won't really work in the first turns, until you've killed the Farseer. If I would tailor against that DE list I'd probably would try something like this - Tyranid Prime - Regen, Deathspitter, ScyTals 2 Hive Guards 8 Ymgarl Genestealers 18 Termagants 20 Devilgants Tervigon - AG, Catalyst, Stinger Salvo Tervigon - AG, Catalyst, Stinger Salvo Dakkafex in a spore Dakkafex in a spore 1499 points Made the Gant units big to soak shooting turn 1-2. Hive Guards are mostly a decoy, everything hoping he doesn't shoot the Tervigons. Prime joins Gants. Don't bother with Biomancy on the Tervigons, too big risk to miss rolling Iron Arm or Endurance (plus usually when going Biomancy you want the extra power meaning you pay extra for something that you can't really use for the first couple of turns). Don't bother with TS against DE - but S4 on the charge is necessary for Gants to threaten the vehicles. Eldrad needs to die ASAP, so focus his unit down with the reserves. Version 2: Tyranid Prime - Regen, Deathspitter, ScyTals 21 Termagants 21 Devilgants Tervigon - AG, Catalyst, Stinger Salvo Tervigon - AG, Catalyst, Stinger Salvo Dakkafex, Mycetic Spore with TL Deathspitter Dakkafex, Mycetic Spore with TL Deathspitter Dakkafex, Mycetic Spore with TL Deathspitter 1500 on the button Btw, Night Fighting is your friend. |
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Post by Jabberwocky on Sept 20, 2012 12:36:27 GMT
Nightfighting won't make a difference, all DE has night vision.
I can agree with everything else said though, assuming you face the typical venom/raider/ravager spam.
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Post by N.I.B. on Sept 20, 2012 14:31:52 GMT
Do their vehicles have Night Vision too?
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Post by maleficus on Sept 20, 2012 20:01:21 GMT
@ N.I.B. - Yes they do.
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