New to 40k; Playing Tyranids. Help?

[innocent]

Sept 12, 2012 9:56:33 GMT free said:

Sept 12, 2012 5:09:11 GMT IainL said:

I guess maybe I'll start with a couple boxes of termigants, a Tyrant and maybe a Trygon.

Throw in a tervigon with Crushing claws and 2-3 Hive guard and you are good to go!

I second that, this is a solid starter army. Tervigons, Hive Guards, Termagants and Trygons are solid choices. The Tyrant is good too but can be on the fragile side, but you'll get to play around with his different abilities and loadouts, which is fun (little tip: magnetize everything if you have the patience, or at least try a few different things before setting your mind on a final loadout).

[IainL]

I played a couple games tonight, both against Eldar. I borrowed a buddies Nids, he just brought me a list of 1500 points.

It was something like this.. I don't know any of the upgrades for the units, but these were what he brought me.

Hive Tyrant w/ Wings
3 Hive Guard
8 Ymgarls
10 Genestealers w/brood lord
10 Genestealers w/brood lord
Trygon
Tyrannifex

I had a lot of fun learning the game and the way it works, I'm still really bad on the rules, and hardly knew what was going on but that's fine. I lost both p the two games by a landslide. My dice (an that's not a stupid excuse) were actually laughable. I don't think I made one armour save. My Flyrant got almost none of his attacks through and I attempted to deep strike my trygon (who didn't come in til turn 4) and then forgot to move him, he then prcoeeded to fail getting into assault. The Hive Guard didn't really get a lot of damage done unfortunately, and my tyrannifex missed all of his rolls to wound (on a 2+, god damnit). The Ymgarls were about the only thing that did okay. My normal genestealers just died instantly.

All in all, I had bad luck, terrible, terrible luck. that and I didnt really know where I should put things. I had a blast and the models looks even more awesome on the table than in the book.

[coredump]

That is great. Use up all the bad luck while you are still learning....

[grimgore]

Sept 13, 2012 0:36:26 GMT innocent said:

Sept 12, 2012 9:56:33 GMT free said:

Throw in a tervigon with Crushing claws and 2-3 Hive guard and you are good to go!

I second that, this is a solid starter army. Tervigons, Hive Guards, Termagants and Trygons are solid choices. The Tyrant is good too but can be on the fragile side, but you'll get to play around with his different abilities and loadouts, which is fun (little tip: magnetize everything if you have the patience, or at least try a few different things before setting your mind on a final loadout).

I totally agree with this, when I first started 'Nids, this was what I was leaning towards and ended up having a Tervigon, 'Gants, some 'Stealers, and Hive Guard as a starter force. As your experimenting finding a build that works for you, see if your opponent is cool with you proxying models to try out different builds. The only thing you have to check is the size, make sure your proxy is the same size, maybe a little larger if your unsure.

This helped me narrow down my choices with actual playtime (more games) AND helped me save some money by seeing what units I actually had to buy.

Now, I need to get some magnets and I am kicking myself a bit for not doing so earlier as it would be really nice to have some different load outs for my bigger bugs.

[IainL]

Yeah, so far from playing a couple games, and from all this info from you guys, I've developed a couple opinions.

HQ: Firstly, idk how I feel about "Flyrants". The frist game he died immediately, and the second he crapped the bed on all of his attacks. Maybe I don't know how to utilize him as a flyer.. Maybe I should just take him on foot? What's the benefit to making him a flyer anyways? What are some cool builds for Hive Tyrants?

Elites: I like Ymgarls, but I do see now that the die really fast if they're not in combat. The probelm was that they killed everything they touched in one round of assult, so they were never locked in combat and they just died from shooting. I like them all the same.

I also didn't mind the Hive Guard, the fact that they have no need of LoS is pretty awesome. Maybe it was just my rolls, but they didn't really do very much damage to anything. I think in the two games combined they took out a squad of 3 bikes, and a Viper. Maybe it was just my bad luck? 2 shots per model doesn't seem like very much..

Zoanthropes are cool I guess, mine didn't do anything at all though. The warp lance is really short range unfortunately.

Troops: All I got to experience was Genestealers, because the guy didn't bring me anything else. He also ended up with first turn in both games.. so most of my Stealers just died before I got to do anything with them. One unit did end up getting into combat with a vehichle and then some harlequins and taking them out, but that's about all they did over two games.

I would like to try some of the other troop choices, Termagants, maybe Hormagaunts. I don't know what the differences are between the three, but hey.

Fast Attack: I never got to play any, but everyone likes Gargoyles.

Heavy Support: I really, really wish my games went better because I didn't really get to try out my heavy slot. Firstly, the Tyrannofex with rupture cannon, only gets two shots at BS3? So he only ever hits one, and then knowing my luck, I rolled like 3 or 4 1's for his wounding. Still, two shots seems lame so maybe he's not worth it. Are there better ways to build a Tyrannofex because mine was very underwhelming.

The Trygon made me sad. He failed his first assault (first game) and died to shooting. The second game I tried deep striking him for fun and that was dumb as hell because I didn't know they couldn't do anything after they come out, so he took a round of fire and then missed all of his shooting, and then failed to get into assault. And then a fire prism landed on his face. I really, really want to try again because I know this guy can be good, I hope.

All in all, I think my games kind of made it hard for me to see what a lot of my units were capable of. I wish things went better.

On a side note, yes, I do plan on magnetizing all of the MC's with muti loadout options.

[dakkathrope]

The best way to help with the Zoanthropes is to spore them as close to the targets as possible, since we automatically are going to deploy safely with spores you should never scatter out of range.
Tyrannofexes are tough to play in a way that make them feel worthwhile. in 1500 pts games they are really too expensive to justify in most cases. The rupture cannon is also rather terrible...
I personally haven't play a trygon more than once or twice (mostly because I do not have the model) so I'm not sure how exactly to get the most out of it.

[gloomfang]

Welcome to the Hive. I'll toss in my 2 cents.

Nids are unlike any army in 40K. They are EXTREAMLY adaptable, but they have a strong learning curve. Almost no two armies are alike and you will hear people say this unit is good/bad, but almost all of that comes down to playstyle. Two great Nid generals will probably both suck if they were forced to swap lists. I have almost 2 decades of experence with genestealers, Screamer Killers and warriors and I have used them from 2nd till now. But I have problems using hive guard and trygons as they are much newer models and they don't fit my playstyle. Others look at my list and wonder how I can win with Venomthropes, Screamer killers and genestealers.

What army do you play WHFB? It sounds like you like hordes as well. Hordes are no viable again, you just need to work in some good synergies.

[IainL]

dakkathrope; I think I'd rather not take the Tyrannofex again. He looks nice, but you can make a Tervigon instead with his kit. I'd like to try one of those instead perhaps.

gloomfang; I like the fact that Nid's are really versatile. I just have to keep trying units and find out what I'm comfortable with I suppose.. I play Warriors of Chaos in WHFB, and I play a very elite type of list with a pretty low-ish model count. No marauders at all, because the models are bad, and they just don't perform as well IMO. Maybe I went for Nid's in 40k because they have a very different feel. I kind of like the option of being horde based, but I also adore the "Nidzilla" aspect because of all the beautiful models.

[ravengoescaw]

Do not let anyone tell you a unit is horrible. I have seen an effective use of Pyrovore, and Trannifex army list. Both units are well known for being less then awesome. Find the models you like the looks and abilities of. Then find the synergy units for it. I highly like the Flyrant now that it can have Sky fire. Which makes it a great partner for my Harpy. I swoop them together. I also run a POM with a CC Shrike Squad. A warrior squad in a spore. A Devigaunt squad, Trygon Prime, and a Tervigon. The Devis, & Tervi run up to objectives. The FMCs act a a first attack "wave" the POM & Shrikes, second wave, and Tervi & Devis a final attack wave/ objective holder. The fun of this army is laying down more units then you paid for. POM with Rippers, Tervi with gaunts, The rippers is one of the things that give POM almost an attack wave status. The shrikes are there mostly for LOS. to get POM in to melee. Get POM in to melee kill something and they fail their toughness roll, then you have a unit to soak over watch by assaulting before POM, then assault POM in they don't get overwatch if already engaged in melee.

[IainL]

Sorry but I don't know half of those acronyms so that all just went right over my head lol.

[brianb9999]

Ok IainL let's talk about Flyrants vs walking tyrants and possible load outs:

Flyrant advantages: they can move 24" in one turn and fire 2 weapons, they are hard to hit when swooping, they can move 12" and launch an assault, they can SKYFIRE now.

Walking tyrant advantages: they can have either a 2+ save (yay!) or a thorax weapon (meh), they have access to hive guard, they don't have to worry about those nasty grounding tests.

So it essentially comes down to a durability/mobility trade off. Flyrants are extremely mobile, and walking tyrants can be quite tough.

So what about weapons? Many options, but not many worthwhile.

Scything talons: They're cheap, and they can be useful, but tyrants have great ws and have access to old adversary, so not necessarily a game breaker.

Lash whip and bonesword: probably more useful than scything talons, they can cause ID and ensure your expensive beast gets to swing.

Deathspitters: great on warriors. Pointless on monstrous creatures as they don't do anything special, unlike...

Devourers: THE reason, in my opinion to take Flyrants. 12 twin-linked s6 shots on an extremely mobile platform? Yes Please! These also let you take advantage of the SKYFIRE rule.

Heavy venom cannon: Mehhh. This seems like a waste of a spot to me, though it has good range, it doesn't seem to do all that much. And they can't SKYFIRE.

Strangle thorn cannon: see above. Its warrior equivalent, the barbed strangler is great...on warriors.

The thing to remember about Flyrants is that vector strikes and certain psychic powers take the place of firing a weapon. Thus the reason that some people favor a Flyrant with a bonesword lash whip and only one devourer. I don't use the walkrant anymore, however, most people seem to be giving them devourers as well (although no skyfire). The longer ranged weapons may be more viable on them, but I still think they are quite mediocre.

Lastly, one Flyrant may be harder to run than 2 at a time. My current list uses 2 Flyrants with double devourers, one with hive commander and one with old adversary. I like to swoop around the board and spray devourers into important targets, and assault when the time is right.

[innocent]

To be fair that was a very tough list to handle for a first game. No Termagants, no Tervigons, Trygon + Tyrannofex AND Flyrant at 1500pnts (too much points sunk on these model). Anyone would have struggled

But looks like you got a few things out of it: you noticed it's vital to stay in combat, which is very hard to do. Genestealers = lethal but die to a stiff breeze. Hive Guards have got incredibly good rules. They are truely devastating when brought in in numbers, try 6 or 9 and see what happens. You don't have to Deep Strike the Trygon, sometimes it's just as effective/better to walk him with the rest of the gang.

I have got limited experience with Ymgarls, but what I get is that you should run them in smallish squads (5 to 8 guys) for a few reasons: the first one so that you still get a chance to deploy them even if the opponent has squatted your piece of terrain, the second one to try to make them less lethal so that they can hold 2 rounds of combat. note that their effectiveness depends largely on the table setup and how many pieces of area terrain are available (which makes them much less useful in tournaments sadly, where tables tend to be lighter on terrain).

I don't rate the Flyrant personnally, even though I own a very cool Forgeworld one. Sadly reading the rules I think he got the shaft (those grounding tests are way too punishing). Sure he got extra protection with new Flyer rules, but this is offset by the fact that he is pretty much garantied a wound if he crashes (and exposes him to more shooting now). He still has some advantages and I'll still play mine, but he won't be in my regular list. However I have run a couple of Tyrant Deathstars in 5th (Tyrant + Tyrant Guards and sometimes a Prime added in there) and was quite happy with them (until I bumped into Paladins but that's another story ).

[IainL]

@brian9999; See, the Flyrant that my buddy had lent me was kitted out with like no ranged weapons for some reason. I'm not going to pretend I know what Skyfireing is, but you caps locked it so in assuming its a good thing. I can see how a flying MC with 12 str 6 TL shots would be pretty crazy though. Could the walking tyrant not take the same thing though and then still take a few Guards for longevity?

innocent; I really think that a walking hulk with some bodyguards is just a cool sounding idea, and especially if he doesn't have to worry about falling from the sky.

But yeah, I don't think I'll be taking a tyrannofex, he just wasn't effective enough for me. Could have been bad luck though. I like the trygon though, I just think he would probably get a lot of focus.

The idea with the Ymgarls is to take +1 T first and then +1 Att in the next assault round so that you can move on and assault someone else, correct? Otherwise you just get shot down?

[innocent]

+1T is good for the first round of combat if you don't want to outright kill your target, and also good if you have to charge through cover (you will be striking at I1, so likely last, so that extra toughness can help you mitigate the damage).

Otherwise yes, +1A for pure damage output. +1S is not that good, more attacks is better in most cases.

Don't be too brash with Ymgarls, they are expensive and still pretty weak. The best targets for them are dedicated shooting units (Devastators, shooty dreadnoughts...). They might not kill their targets (ex: Dreads), but will stop them from shooting for a turn or 2, which in turns allows the rest of your swarm to get closer unmollested.

If they weren't competing with Hive Guards, I'd take them all the time...

[IainL]

innocent; so you'd opt to take 6-9 Hive Guard instead of the Ymgarls?