Psychic Choir

[bebe]

So here is the list that people are talking about for Nids other than the ubiquitoous dual flyrant list.
So what is in the list ...
6-9 Zoanthropes (depends on point levels how mmany. no choir without them though)
swarmlord or walking ht possible but not required
2-4 tervoigons (always some in a choir list)
2-3 broodlords ( can be done but what are you giving up for them?)

Everything else is mutable. So we are spamming bought psychic powers. Tyranids can get three choices ... biomancy, telepathy, telekinisis. Let's discuss the onew we want first ...

Biomancy has some powers that we can really use well
Iron Arm on either tervigons or a swarmlord is a pita for an opponent. It just makes your guy so much harder to hurt with the extra stregnth and toughness and gives our MC eternal warrior - yes please.
Enfeeble - Just all around useful. Makes us hard to attack when you know your guys are moving through difficult terrain and a lot weaker.
Endurance - Another buff for MCs but not that great. FNP is nice but I could just get catalyst. I can't use the wound removal on MCs either.
Warpspeed - Will get swarmlord into combat with some pretty good stats. Can make a half-decent melee tervigon w/ claws. I'm fastr, have more attacks and I have better initiative (not that useful on a terv but the other bonuses are).
So biomancy is rarely a bad choice with so many good options. We can rolll on the table, if we get what we want right away we can then roll on another table. For Zoans we can roll get what we want on one zoan and then keep the codex powers on the others. Choices ...

Telekinisis is the red headed step-child. Some of the powers are just great others meh ...
Gate of Infinity - It is 24" measured from any one member of the unit and you can disappear from melee combat fblessing.) A bit risky, if you have a squad, as one of them can randomly vanish- think zoans. Still, it's an excellent utility power.
Objuration Mechanicum: - An anti-tank power, this one inflicting an automatic Haywire hit on everyone in the unit and forcing them to reroll hit/wound rolls of six. Good against tanks, good against rending models, good for preventing Overwatch losses. This might be the prize.

Telepathy is a relatively safe choice.
Psychic Shriek - The Primaris power and a witchfire that causes wounds equal to 3d6 minus the target's Leadership with no armor or cover saves allowed. Very tempting to just spam with zoans while keeping the codex powers on one in the group.
Puppet Master - A focused witchfire, but one that does no damage- instead, the targeted model takes an immediate shot as if it were under your control. I like this one. I would not be unhappy to roll it and take my chances.
Terrify - Now we are talking. It removes the Fearless rule, makes the unit fear all enemies, and forces an immediate morale check. So those now fearless units can flee of the board. We can make charging ius more dicey. I like it.
Invisibility - A Warp Charge 2 powerthat your Swarmlordwill appreciate. It grants the shrouded andstealth rule to a unit, makes the enemy fight them at WS1 and prevents them from using counterattack against you. With an Iron Arm Swarmlord nice. Put it on your gargs and Parasite - nice. Gotta love it.
Hallucination - The Swarmlord wants this one. The enemy has equal chances of being pinned automatically (unless immune to pinning), standing and doing nothing , or inflicting a single hit per model on their own unit. I'll take it if I get it but there are a few better.

So now we design a list ...

Swarmlord, 4* Biomancy/Telepathy- 280
Parasite of Mortrex - 160

2x 3 Zoanthropes, 2* Telekinisis/Biomancy- 360

2x 10 Termagants - 100
2x Tervigon Toxin, Claws, 3* Biomancy/Telepathy - 450

25 Gargoyles, Toxin Sacs - 150

-1500-

So why no Tyrant guard on my SL? I will get Iron Arm with any luck. Anything else is a bonus. Why telekinisis on my Zoans? I do like both gate and objuration on them. Why telepathy on my tervs? I don't expect to roll for it but if I get enfeeble/iron arm I';ll see if I can get an extra useful power. And the Parasite and gargs? What is not to like in 6ed. Rending, buffer rippers, LoS, etc., etc. ... you need something to lead the charge and get into cc quickly. With toxin there is not many units they cannot handle. So these are my early thoughts without a lot of 6ed testing yet. I'm still working on that. But I do love the possibolities that nids now have.

So I edited this as I just finished playing a game and also wrote this up fo another site. Discuss

[Jabberwocky]

Swarmy I take biomancy until endurance or iron arm, then usually whatever I'm lacking in already. Gate can be hilarious but so can puppet master.

Zoans I'd spam telepathy if podded, TK if not. If running them as a support unit with TK/Bio, consider using them to man a quad gun.

Tervs I think are best maxxing out the odds to get endurance as they just will not die with it up.

[l0rdf1end]

Zoans - Native Powers against Mech, Switch to Telepathy for foot lists and take the primas (Pyschic Shriek for mini dooms).

Tervigons - Biomancy, Endurance is useful as is Iron Arm, Warpspeed for smash attacks is powerful.

Broodlords - Telekenesis, You want Objuration Mechanicum for preventing overwatch and taking hull points off mech.

Hive Tyrants, specifically Flyrants - Biomancy, this gives them a little Survivability when not Swooping. Iron Arm can save you against grounding wounds, so can FNP from Endurance.

[halos]

Don't forget Enfeeble, it is incredible, slapping one or two of those onto an enemy squad can really put them into a world of hurt.

There is, of course, some question as to whether the effects can stack or not, but even without stacking it's a useful, versatile Power which can be used offensively or defensively.

[bebe]

Such a lack of love for Telekinisis ... three decent powers - crush, objuration mechanicum, and gate of infinity. Definitely a gamble but useful on zoans. Also not too shabby as a second choice (once I get the powers I need from biomancy) on tervigons. I like telepathy - it is safe but telekinisis can be more impactful if you roll the right power. The trick is fielding enough psychers and we are now a list that can flood the table with psychers and defense (SitW).

[l0rdf1end]

"Don't forget Enfeeble, it is incredible, slapping one or two of those onto an enemy squad can really put them into a world of hurt"

Enfeeble unfortunately doesn’t stack
Still useful against multiwound T4, Oblits..Wraiths, Paladins and so on if you can throw out a lot of Str 6 Dakka.

[Jabberwocky]

Good for wounding MEQ on 2s with our S5 shooting too and for IDing DE easier.

[bebe]

There are other ways to run the choir without PoM and gargs which some find a bit too costly for what they do.

Swarmlord, 4* Telekinesis/Biomancy- 280
Tyrant Guard 60
Tyranid Prime, Lash Whip & Bone Swords, Deathspitter, Toxin Sacs, Regeneration - 120

3x 3 Zoanthropes, 2* Telekinesis/Biomancy- 540

2x 10 Termagants - 100
2x Tervigon Toxin, 3* Biomancy/Telepathy - 400

-1500-

This gives you a mini death star that can gate and even more psychic powers to fall back on particularly objuration mechanicum - do we have better anti-flyer in a psychic choir? .

[kurbutti]

I went with this list in a 1000pt. game:

== HQ ==
Swarmlord (1) = 280 pts.

== Elites ==
Zoanthrope Brood (2) = 120 pts.
Zoanthrope Brood (2) = 120 pts.
Zoanthrope Brood (2) = 120 pts.

== Troops ==
Broodlord Brood (178 pts.)
--> Broodlord (1) - Scything Talons, AG, Toxin Sacs, Acid Blood, Implant Attack = 98 pts.
--> Genestealer (4) - AG, Toxin Sacs = 80 pts.
Broodlord Brood (178 pts.)
--> Broodlord (1) - Scything Talons, AG, Toxin Sacs, Acid Blood, Implant Attack = 98 pts.
--> Genestealer (4) - AG, Toxin Sacs = 80 pts.

== Total ==
996 pts.

Swarmlord and 4 Zoanthropes went for Telepathy. Remaining two Zoans kept their Codex powers. Broodlords took Biomancy and both broods got Iron Arm and Enfeeble. All in all I had Swarmy with Hallucination and some mixed Terrify, Psychic Shriek and Dominate.

I faced Space Wolves. He had Canis Wolfborn, 2 Battle Leaders on Thunderwolves, Wolf Lord on a thunderwolf and then some regular wolf riders. A crazy unit, like 700+ points. In addition he had two packs of dogs as troops.

I tabled him by turn three. They were pinned, ate Warp Lances and Psychic Shrieks until I charged him with both Broodlords and the Swarmlord. S3 T3 Thunderwolves aren't too scary. Fun game...

Should have kept Codex powers on all 6 Zoans though. Their Telepathic powers had so little effect.

[gloomfang]

I posted this over on Dakka, but I should incude it here as there is much more discussion.
In general I like this list. Just a few notes:

1) I tried the PoM. I was very disapointed in him. I was running him with Shrikes though. Might be worth it with the gargoyles, but I think you need a Prime.

2) I run SL a lot. You need a tyrant guard for him, not for the guard itself, but so you can attach a Prime. SL is just to vulnerable to challanges. Either he gets killed (MSS and things like Loki) or he can't do any damage and gets tarpitted for 2-3 turns (IG I am looking at you). A lone SL must accept all chanages.

3) I tend to run TK on SL. Gate gets him across the table faster, OM lets him hurt tanks and flyers at range (and ruin overwatch), TK Dome gives him an Invuln that he really needs. While Biomancy has good powers, they really do not give you more tactial options like TK does. They just make a killy unit more killy.

4) You need a kill the guy with the ball unit or two. This list will get hurt really bad by a Farseer with Runes or a Runic Priest. You need something that can kill that unit fast. I tend to favor Ymgarls or Deathleaper.

And
My Semi-choir list for 1999 List is:

HQ:
Swarmlord with 2xGuard with Lash
Prime Lash/BS ScyTal, TS

Elite:
2 Venomthropes
Deathleaper
2 Zoantropes

Troops:
6 Genestealers w/TS wth BLord with Scytal, TS and IA
6 Genestealers w/TS wth BLord with Scytal, TS and IA
Tervigon: Cat, Onslaught, Crush, TS
10 Devgaunts
14 Hormaguants

FA:
4 Shrikes w/BS and AG

HS:
Fex with Scytal, AG and Frag. (Yes it is a normal fex. No he does not have a pod. Yes he is a little slow, but he does what he is supposed to do.)

All told I have 15 Power slots and 6 psykers. I am thinking of dropping the fex and Hormaguants to take a second Tervigon (just don't have the time or $ right now) and swaping the devgaunts for 2 squads of normal guants.

Still the list is running really strong against most lists. I tend to take TK on everything unless I am facing a horde. Then I take 1 roll on Telepathy (default to Shriek) and then take TK on everything. I can usually count on 3 OMs and that is usually good enough to deal with most flyers. I am finding that if I go to much heavier on psykers that I tend to win big or lose big. This list has a little flexability.

In my original 6th ed list I had the PoM in with the Shrikes and no Prime.

[NidsAndMarines]

l0rdf1end. So why do you say multiple Enfeebles don't stack? I can't see anywhere in the BRB or the FAQ anything to support your claim.

In fact, BRB P68, MALEDICTIONS. "Note that bonuses and penalties from different maledictions are always cumulative ..."

'Nids & Marines.

[bebe]

Should have kept Codex powers on all 6 Zoans though. Their Telepathic powers had so little effect.

You were using psychic shriek ... it has some advantages over regular powers I would think. Personally I use telekinesis and prefer it.

gloomfang - you have six sources of psychic powers at 2000 - a psychic choir list has as many as twelve at 1500. Not that your list isn't good. But it is not a psychic choir. karbuti's has nine at 1000 points.

[gloomfang]

Sept 4, 2012 20:51:44 GMT bebe said:

gloomfang - you have six sources of psychic powers at 2000 - a psychic choir list has as many as twelve at 1500. Not that your list isn't good. But it is not a psychic choir. karbuti's has nine at 1000 points.

Its why I call it a semi-choir =)

There is a point of deminishing returns on psykers like I said in my post. I feel that @15-20 powers is the max usefull limit. After that you run the risk that all spam lists face, they just suck against some lists.

I have tried a proxy list with 30 powers. (SL, 3 units of 2 Zoans, 4 Blord and 2 Tervigons). It worked real well until my friend popped out an Eldar list. I hit a wall and my army was totally wiped out.

Again what is our definition of a Choir? Mine is anything with 15 powers or more as it is the minimum needed to make sure you get multiples of a power you want.

[l0rdf1end]

"Note that bonuses and penalties from different maledictions are always cumulative ..."

Notice two words "from different", enfeeble is stackable with different maledictions, not with itself.

[bebe]

gloomgang - I agree. Sometimes spamming is nit the approach but you can always decide to take your Zoans with regular powers, your Tervs with regular powers, etc. You have the option to use as many or as few as you like of the swapped powers. I think it's why I prefer the garg list. At 1750 it leaves me room to play with a few options as well in the heavy and elite when expanding to 1750-2000. But I do see your point.