Terrify and Close Combat

[kurbutti]

This should be quite straightforward:

I cast Terrify on some Fearless enemy unit that is currently in Close Combat with some of my dudes. Terrify says they must "immediately take a Morale Check" Now if you fail that check in CC, you can get swept. Wonder if this is what they meant? AFAIK you can cast Malediction onto a unit that is locked in CC, so no problem there.

Thoughts?

[killme304]

The RAI part of me wants to think that is silly and shouldn't work.

The RAW part of me can't find anything that states that a end of combat morale check is the only thing that causes a fall-back move (and a sweep too).

EDIT:
The more I think about it, it actually would make sense, since you are basically scaring the **** out of them, you would run too.

[coredump]

Sweeping advances comes from combat resolution and leaving combat. You would need a rule allowing it in the movement phase.

I would say that the other unit would get a consolidation move.

[fragile]

Well, SA triggers on a unit Falling Back. Failing a Morale check causes a unit to fall back. So at the moment its legit. However, I can see it FAQ'd not to work, since units are immune to Morale in the shooting phase.

[Jabberwocky]

Sweeping advance is performed by "the winning side" in combat. If the unit has not inflicted wounds yet that turn, how can it count as winning?

The rules for sweeping advance are very specific. All that should happen is the unit falls back and the friendly unit is free to make it's move as normal. It shouldn't even consolidate as that is specifically triggered by winning a combat or an enemy using hit and run. An enemy using gate of infinity for example does not let you consolidate.

[Harvey]

Aug 19, 2012 7:48:34 GMT Jabberwocky said:

Sweeping advance is performed by "the winning side" in combat. If the unit has not inflicted wounds yet that turn, how can it count as winning?

This.

But id still hope for a FAQ to stop "that guy".


Can you imagine what you could do if this was actually intended?

Cut down and end a combat in the movement phase then that unit is free to move and assault a entirely new unit.

[fragile]

Aug 19, 2012 7:48:34 GMT Jabberwocky said:

Sweeping advance is performed by "the winning side" in combat. If the unit has not inflicted wounds yet that turn, how can it count as winning?

The rules for sweeping advance are very specific. All that should happen is the unit falls back and the friendly unit is free to make it's move as normal. It shouldn't even consolidate as that is specifically triggered by winning a combat or an enemy using hit and run. An enemy using gate of infinity for example does not let you consolidate.

The "winning side" is not the trigger for SA and has nothing to do with wounds. SA is triggered by a unit falling back from CC. Pg. 26 "When a unit falls back from combat, the victors make a SA."

"falls back" is from failing the morale check. Pg29. "If the results is higher than their LD, ...... the unit will immediately Fall Back."

Now in the case of CC, the rules state that the losing side must make a Morale Check "Pg26."

Losing combat causes a Morale Check.

Failing a Morale Check causes a Fall Back.

Falling back from Close Combat causes a Sweeping Advance.

[Jabberwocky]

Page 30 talks about units falling back that were in combat and makes no mention of sweeping advance.

It is only talked about on page 26 under assault results. There is no victor to make a sweeping advance if there is no assault result, therefore no sweeping advance.

[fragile]

Aug 20, 2012 5:53:08 GMT Jabberwocky said:

Page 30 talks about units falling back that were in combat and makes no mention of sweeping advance.

Thats because those units had passed their SA test.

[kurbutti]

According to SA rules, it triggers if the other unit has to Fall Back from the close combat.

Here's some food for thought: Rules for Fall Back aren't specific on if the only way you can lose an assault is to cause less Wounds than the opposing side. That would leave just enough blank space for interpretation that Terrify does cause you to Fall Back regardless of actual assault results. In addition, Hallucination for example does explictly state that 1-2 can't affect a unit that is in close combat. So why not use same kind of ruling here? Pinning in CC vs. Falling Back from Assault in movement phase? Both should be impossible, yet only the other has a forbidden stamp on it.

[fragile]

Personally I don't see it as being allowed to stand. Its very powerful for what it can do, however they do have to fail the LD test though.

[Jabberwocky]

Aug 20, 2012 6:47:52 GMT kurbutti said:

According to SA rules, it triggers if the other unit has to Fall Back from the close combat.

Here's some food for thought: Rules for Fall Back aren't specific on if the only way you can lose an assault is to cause less Wounds than the opposing side. That would leave just enough blank space for interpretation that Terrify does cause you to Fall Back regardless of actual assault results. In addition, Hallucination for example does explictly state that 1-2 can't affect a unit that is in close combat. So why not use same kind of ruling here? Pinning in CC vs. Falling Back from Assault in movement phase? Both should be impossible, yet only the other has a forbidden stamp on it.

Being pinned has absolutely no effect on combat though, past assaulting into cover. This is why it has no effect.

Terrify causes an 'out of phase' action, like overwatch shooting in the assault phase. You can't break a unit with overwatch because I'm sure they were worried about this kind of thing.

Anyway my point is, just because you do something doesn't mean you also follow what normally comes next, unless you're told to. Especially in an unusual situation.

[Jabberwocky]

Aug 20, 2012 6:03:10 GMT fragile said:

Aug 20, 2012 5:53:08 GMT Jabberwocky said:

Page 30 talks about units falling back that were in combat and makes no mention of sweeping advance.

Thats because those units had passed their SA test.

Where does it say that? SA tests are not always taken. For example if the enemy is still locked, is wearing terminator armour or has a similar special rule, like our spores.

[Deleted]

Yeah, I have to side with it not triggering SA as that would be some serious abuse there. It still has great uses though. Say your Warrior unit gets charged and the combat continues into your turn. You Terrify them and they consolidate out of combat. You then shoot them and charge them, going back into CC and gaining your charge bonus. So it can still be used to give you a massive advantage.