[1500] Flight/Flank/Fleet Revised

[eugee]

So after a year I'm getting back into 40K with 6E, and I'm tinkering around with my army list again. We mostly only play 1500 at the shop, as you actually have to make some real choices in your army list. Plus the other folks I play with rarely do more than 1500 points at the moment.

HQ:
Hive Tyrant (Whip&Sword; Stranglethorn; Commander; Wings; Parox/Leech)

Elite:
Hive Guard x2
Hive Guard x2
Ymgarl Genestealer x10

Troops:
Tervigon (Talons; Cluster; Adrenal; Toxin Sacs; Catalyst)
Termagant x11
Hormagaunt x16 (Talons; Adrenal; Toxin)

Fast Attack:
Gargoyle x15 (Adrenal; Toxin)

Heavy Support:
Trygon Prime (Toxin)

Total Roster Cost: 1500

I've got the Tyrant/Tervigon/Trygon Prime to provide me with lots of synapse coverage, and heavy assaulting power. The Tervigon, Termagants, Hormagaunts, and Gargoyles will be the main assaulting block, with the Hive Guard closely supporting their advance. With smaller count opponents, the hormagaunts will outflank, or with larger forces I'll stick with target saturation to ensure more successful assaults.

I have some interest in trying out a devilpod of 15-20 gants, but there's just no room to try it in this list. (At 1750 I'd put this in, plus run 6 hive guard.)

[coredump]

With a flyrant, I would stick with the TLDev x2. BSword does nothing, and if you pick your battles the LW should not be much help either. The STC is a one shot, which can get a number of hits, but I still think the TLDev would do better more often.

HGaunts can't assault when the Outflank, so I would not bother with Commander. Usually better off starting the HGs on the board. May want to think about OA, and think about swapping the Psy powers for Biomancy

8 Yealers should be enough. 10 is okay too... but if you need to save some points, cutting a couple yealers will still leave you with a viable unit.

You mention the Tervigon as part of the main assaulting block, in that case I would swap the talons for CClaws. (and again, think about Biomancy for her)

Synapse isn't as necessary, but it still has benefits.... you may want to revisit spending the pts on the Prime part of the Trygon.

[eugee]

I really disagree with you on the flyrant in this army. There's nothing at all wrong with the TLDevx2, but the BS&LW makes the flyrant great for challenging the enemy warlord. The Stranglethorn is only a one shot if the tyrant stays in assault for the rest of the game; otherwise it's a chance at some casualties and a pinning test. I'd consider dropping it and just going with Talons to reroll 1s to hit, but it's a melee flyrant and character killer, not a shooter.

Hive Guard is there to make my Yealers & Trygon Prime hit the table reliably, not to give outflank to the Hormagaunts. It's just a nice bonus to take advantage of when fighting a low model count army, making the tyranids more chaotic for them (and +1 reserves even MORE important). I'm not opposed to dropping Commander in the future, but it definitely won't be to pick up Old Adversary! Every unit I have has toxin and S4+ on the charge; they already reroll all wounds most of the time. Plus the hormagaunts and Trygon wouldn't gain anything from OA either.

The tervigon is bringing up the rear of the synapse, not a primary assault unit. I'm happy with talons there, and again I'm experimenting with Biomancy. Synapse in the late game is the difference between a close assault faultering or pushing through. But that is the biggest change I keep looking at--dropping Prime to spend those points elsewhere.

[killme304]

Aug 13, 2012 16:06:05 GMT eugee said:

I really disagree with you on the flyrant in this army. There's nothing at all wrong with the TLDevx2, but the BS&LW makes the flyrant great for challenging the enemy warlord. The Stranglethorn is only a one shot if the tyrant stays in assault for the rest of the game; otherwise it's a chance at some casualties and a pinning test. I'd consider dropping it and just going with Talons to reroll 1s to hit, but it's a melee flyrant and character killer, not a shooter.

Hive Guard is there to make my Yealers & Trygon Prime hit the table reliably, not to give outflank to the Hormagaunts. It's just a nice bonus to take advantage of when fighting a low model count army, making the tyranids more chaotic for them (and +1 reserves even MORE important). I'm not opposed to dropping Commander in the future, but it definitely won't be to pick up Old Adversary! Every unit I have has toxin and S4+ on the charge; they already reroll all wounds most of the time. Plus the hormagaunts and Trygon wouldn't gain anything from OA either.

The tervigon is bringing up the rear of the synapse, not a primary assault unit. I'm happy with talons there, and again I'm experimenting with Biomancy. Synapse in the late game is the difference between a close assault faultering or pushing through. But that is the biggest change I keep looking at--dropping Prime to spend those points elsewhere.

I think he is referring to the fact that, while you could roll a hit and possibly get more chances to wound, TL devs add more consistency, especially against armies like marines where squad sizes aren't as big. It has a chance to do nothing if you get a bad scatter, devs don't have to worry about that. I'm with Coredump in thinking the LW is fairly useless when its a lone HT, you generally go before the enemy in combat anyway. The sword only gives you a chance at ID, which is only needed on multi-wound models, and most of those seem to have eternal warrior these days (read: characters).It comes up so in-frequently, that I usually forget it exists when it would have relevance. Adding another gun takes nothing away other than some points.

Toxin-spam lists are about the only lists where I don't advocate OA, although it basically would make your shooting almost all wound too (since you will be wounding on 2s most of the time). It does however give your Tyrant a pseudo-scytals + toxin sac in addition to helping your shooting (wounding on 2+ plus scytals let you reroll 1s to hit anyway).

I used to think like you about Tervigons. Four games into 6th I decided they are better at CC than almost everything else in the dex and that is where they should be. I now run them almost every turn they won't be assaulting, because once they get to CC, I usually mop up everything that doesn't have a weapon that causes ID.

I do agree with you on having late game synapse is still super important. Fearless lets our little guys die in droves and still survive to the next round of combat. Getting swept still sucks, especially when its a Trygon (only really happens against things like TH/SS termies but still). I'd actually use that as a reason -not- to drop Prime, as you would otherwise only have 2 synapse sources.

[coredump]

The Trygon and Hgaunts are the only units you have that would not benefit from OA. Remember, it now helps to hit and to wound, and shooting as well as CC.

The Gargs, for example, would get a 16% boost in shooting, plus a 16% boost in shooting wounds against MEq, plus a 16% Boost in hitting in assault.

Your gaunts only have rerolls if they stay within 6" of the Tervi, which if you are using it to bring up the rear....

But mostly it helps that Tyrant. Shooting and CC. (but fly over to the Hive Guard and watch how much extra damage they do...)

If you want the 2+ from HC, that is cool. I almost never DS trygons, and I am okay with a 3+ on my yealers. (last edition it was a 4+, so it is better already)

I don't see the LW being all that much help against Challenges; but then I don't see my flyrant as targetting tough ICs anyway. I would rather have those extra TLDev shots to snipe models out of units (From either position, or precision.)

And I didn''t mean one shot all game, just one per turn. I think you are much more likely to get more S6 hits from TLDev than from a STC. If you think a pinning check is worth the trade off for getting fewer wounds... that is a judgement call.

[eugee]

I understand your train of thought better now.

I'll say this: I think 2xTLDev + OA would be really good if I was staying with the shooters. But I like taking her right at the nastiest target on the board and taking it down. I used dual talons in 5E so she could hit a moving vehicle, and in 6E I wanted to change to the lash whip--the bone sword just comes with it, I'm not seeking it. The TLDev is a viable option, but I would rather have a chance to pin a unit to prevent overwatch, or else just go with talons; especially since unless I do Biomancy I'll be using Paroxysm on the assault turn. I can easily see dropping Commander, after all 3+ is what I was taking it for in 5E. That's up in the air really.

Tyrant (lw&bs, talons, wings, toxin) - 240
Hive Guard 2x2 - 200
Yealers x10 - 230
Tervigon (adrenal, toxin, catalyst, onslaught) - 210
Termagants x10 - 50
Hormagaunts x20 (adrenal, toxin) - 200
Gargoyles x15 (adrenal, toxin) - 120
Trygon Prime (toxin) - 250

Just typing out this thought process, I could just turn the tyrant into a straight challenge assassin, realistically challenging a WS1 BS1 I1 character with 5 attacks re-rolling 1s to-hit and re-rolling all wounds up to T6. That's a pretty big challenge. Then with the last 10 points, drop talons off the Tervigon and take the third psyker power for more Biomancy. Hmmm... possibly. Lots to tinker with here.

EDIT - I am going to take a long look at just going with dual-talons on the HT and hoping for some Biomancy love.

[coredump]

You seem to have thought things through, and if it is working with your play style, that is the important part.

[eugee]

I really appreciate the feedback and ideas though, I'm going to be trying this out next weekend and I'll be looking for where your suggestions would have made things different.

Big things I'm watching:
+ Is forcing I1 with whip better than re-rolling all misses with dual talons?
+ Is a third Biomancy pick better than a TLDev on the flyrant?
+ Am I better off dropping toxin of the Tyrant/Trygon and finding 5 more points for Crushing Claws? I think I have to have 3 Biomancy with that.
+ Is 1 Brood of 3 Hive Guard plus Crushing Claws and Command better than 2 Broods of 2 Hive Guard?

Anyway, this has really gotten my army-building juices flowing again.

EDIT: Dang it. I've printed the new list already, think I'm trying this first:

UPDATED LIST
Hive Tyrant (2x Talons, Toxin, Wings, Commander, 2 Biomancy)
Hive Guard x3
Ymgarl Genestealers x10
Tervigon (Claws, Stinger, Adrenal, Toxin, 3 Biomancy)
Termagants x10
Hormagaunts x20 (Adrenal, Toxin)
Gargoyles x15 (Adrenal, Toxin)
Trygon Prime (Toxin)

Trying this one first.

[killme304]

3 Biomancy on tervigon ensures you get at least 1 of the good powers.

Vs most things, you will be going first anyway, so the whip is kinda useless.

Good luck!

[eugee]

I agree on the whip, I'll usually be going first, and there's a 1/3 chance that Biomancy will REALLY make the whip pointless. I'll just reroll all my to-hits.

[eugee]

I've been at work for 18 hours now. So one last army list revision! The fleet/flight/flank list was my first 1500 point army I finished (painted and all) so it's always my first instinct to play it. Only real change I'm making from the last update is dropping to 15 hormagaunts to give the base termagaunts devourers. As the wrecking ball tervigon will NOT be escorting them around, I want to give them a little more teeth as a midfield objective holder (to keep them in synapse).

UPDATED LIST

HQ
Hive Tyrant (2xTalon, Toxin, Wings, Commander, 2 Biomancy) - 265

ELITE
Hive Guard x3 - 150
Ymgarl Genestealer x10 - 230

TROOPS
Tervigon (Stinger, Claws, Adrenal, Toxin, 3 Biomancy) - 235
Termagant x10 (Devourer) - 100
Hormagaunt x15 (Adrenal, Toxin) - 150

FAST ATTACK
Gargoyle x15 (Adrenal, Toxin) - 120

HEAVY SUPPORT
Trygon Prime (Toxin) - 250

[eugee]

Latest version of FFF:

HQ
Hive Tyrant (2xTalons, Toxin, Wings, Commander, 2 Biomancy) - 265

ELITE
Hive Guard x3 - 150
Ymgarl Genestealers x8 - 184

TROOPS
Tervigon (Claws, Adrenal, Toxin, 3 Biomancy) - 235
Termagant x12 (Devourer) - 120
Hormagaunt x16 (Adrenal, Toxin) - 160

FAST ATTACK
Gargoyle x17 (Adrenal, Toxin) - 136

HEAVY SUPPORT
Trygon Prime (Toxin) - 250

Dropped down to 8 Ymgarls to grab another hormagaunt, 2 more termagaunts, and 2 more gargoyles. I'm also trying out the same list with Lictors. For that drop Hive Commander & Ymgarls, take 3 Lictors, drop 1 hormagaunt and add 3 gargoyles.