[1500] Can I fit a Swarmlord?

[eugee]

So during my all-night server building session I also farted around with a second list idea (the first is posted already). Traditionally I start off my lists with a budget for each FOC slot, proportional to the points size. In 1500 I typically budget around 175 to Fast Attack (since I pretty much only run screening gargoyles), 265 for HQ/Elite/HS, and about 530 for my Troops.

Please understand this is just my starting point; I usually veer off quite a bit, but that's where my process starts. Well for this list I know I want to try a Swarmlord. I just got the flyrant kit at the shop, and I'm going to turn my old metal flyrant into a swarmlord with all those glorious boneswords. I've always been lukewarm about Swarmlords till the notion of rolling 4 Biomancies became a reality. But I couldn't get past dropping so many points on the Swarmlord plus a Tyrant Guard into my HQ.

I changed my thinking on this last night.

So I drop 280 for the Swarmlord. No problem, my flyrant isn't much cheaper, and that's close to my 265 budget. Then I look at how many tyrant guard to take... and three of them (with whips) will run me 195 points. Well... that's close to what I would spend on gargoyles normally. Why am I taking gargoyles? To SCREEN! Okay, so we'll just put the budget for my screening role, and use it for the tyrant guard! I'm +35 over budget right now.

Next stop is my Elites for two broods of two hive guard. It's the smartest 200 points I can spend there. I'm coming in 65 under my budget here, netting me a -30 surplus.

Next I hit up the troops, and go with the same choice I had in my other list tonight, a pair of wrecking ball Tervigons: Stinger, Claws, Adrenal, Toxin, and 3 Biomancies, plus 10 termagants to go with each. That's running me 570 points, so I'm about 40 points over, and my net goal is now only +10 over.

I keep looking at my Heavy Support, and my 265 budget, and I'm just not seeing what I want. I could go with two broods of Biovores. Six pie plates a turn is nothing to be ashamed of; but it's not taking advantage of the swarmlord's special rules. I need something that can reserve. So I opt for a Trygon Prime w/ Toxin (250) to give me a second wrecking ball coming in on a 2+ reserve with no mishaps and able to come in from any angle. At 250 points I'm getting back 15 points on the budget leaving me a -5 surplus, with 1495 points!

I'm looking at the list now, and thinking... I'm only making one reserve roll, which is a real waste. Instead of a 235 point Tervigon, is there anything ELSE that would synergize well with reserve rolls? Hmmm... did someone just suggest Ymgarl Genestealers (10 @ 230 points), why yes, I just did, thank you!

Okay, so I drop 230 on the Ymgarls, taking better advantage of reserve rolls, giving me a third angle of attack, and making the list more unpredictable. I'm -10 on my budget at this point, but I also have 10 termagants more than I must take. I'm not looking to ditch all of them, but I wouldn't mind trying out Regeneration on the remaining Tervigon--she should be quite hard to kill and it might just we worth the points. So I drop 4 termagants to get to my -30 net budget and take Regeneration.

The final list:

HQ:
Swarmlord - 280
Tyrant Guard x3 (Whips) - 195

ELITE:
Hive Guard x2 - 100
Hive Guard x2 - 100
Ymgarl Genestealers x10 - 230

TROOPS:
Tervigon (Stinger, Claws, Adrenal, Regen, Toxin, 3 Biomancy) - 265
Termagant x16

HEAVY SUPPORT:
Trygon Prime (Toxin) - 250

So the Swarmlord and Tervigon will just stomp across the field with the Hive Guard supporting their approach. The Ymgarls and Trygon will come in on 2+ reserves, causing chaos where they appear, and win or lose, I'll have 3 gigantic wrecking balls just cutting a path of destruction through the enemy lines.

I know this was a really long post (especially for a proposed list), but I wanted to share my thought process when making a new list. My opinion on Swarmlords in 1500 has definitely changed though--I had to think of the Tyrant Guard as my screening unit, instead of part of the Swarmlord's cost.

[fragile]

3 Guard for the swarmlord is excessive. Usually people tend to a avoid SL and go after everything else, or drop enough AP2 stuff into the squad to make 2 extra wounds moot.

[eugee]

3 seemed like a lot to me too, but I got away from thinking of them as part of the Swarmlord's cost. They are my screening unit. If I only take two, I'm going to take 10 plain gargoyles to screen more. Except they aren't going give the Swarmlord 2 more wounds, or provide a better cover save for the tervigon. They are just going to draw fire and die, or get in one good hit and die. So why not take the 2 more wounds?

Krak missiles will need ~16.2 shots to inflict 6 wounds on the tyrant guard in cover, and 18.9 to land a 7th wound (on the Swarmlord). With only 2 tyrant guard, it will take ~10.8 shot to inflict 4 wounds, and 13.5 to wound the swarmlord. 60 points to negate ~5 krak missiles seems like a good deal to me (lash whips are surplus points, like adrenal on gargoyles). With two units in reserve at the start of the game, I think the Swarmlord is going to draw more fire than you are giving credit to. I think the Swarmlord and Tervigon are going to get shot to pieces, which is why turn 2 the Ymgarls should be assaulting whatever the biggest threat to them is, and the Trygon will be popping up amidst their lines to take some heat off them.

If they ignore the Swarmlord... awesome. Then I still have a tyrant guard brood pushing the enemy to I1 and making 12x S5 attacks on the charge. I'm sure there's a worse way to spend 195 points.

[stormbreed]

I'm 100% going to run this combo coming up on Sunday, I'll let you know how it does against a Chaos army.

My guess is they are going to ignore the Swarmy, deal with the turn 2 units, and then overwhelm the Swarmy with firepower, I'm just hoping to get there prior to that happening.

[Jabberwocky]

I don't think anyone will throw shots at an 11 wound HQ when there is a 6 wound troop that can kill your only other troop when it dies.

I'd drop a guard, or 2, for either more gants or a unit of warriors or something.

You want fire split across those T6 units, so they all need to be comparible, letting you influence their target priority through positioning and use.

At least that's the way I look at it.

Now tyrant guard with Boneswords, are a credible threat in their own right and WILL help draw fire into that unit.

[eugee]

Morph T on the turn the Yealers assault and tie up the unit that is most dangerous to the MCs. Blast the (please do not swear) out of whatever is most dangerous to the Trygon that is still free to shoot, and by turn 3 you'll either be wading through the carnage, or picking up the pieces, but it will involve a lot of dice at least. I think most 1500 point forces aren't going to be able to "deal with" the turn 2 units that easily, and put you in a three pronged close combat brawl, where your three MCs are going to shine.

What do you think the enemy list will look like?

[eugee]

Aug 15, 2012 17:03:08 GMT Jabberwocky said:

I don't think anyone will throw shots at an 11 wound HQ when there is a 6 wound troop that can kill your only other troop when it dies.

Looking at the list again that's an embarrassing number of troops, so that has to change. I also agree that there's not much motivation to shoot at the Swarmlord in his current state. So doing a quick rebuild off the budget:

Swarmlord: 280 of 265 / 15 over
150 2x Tyrant Guard (Bonesword): 150 of 175 / -10 under
200 2x Hive Guard twice: 200 of 265 / - 75 under
250 Trygon Prime (Toxin): 250 of 265 / - 90 under

620 left for Troops.

235 Tervigon
100 Termagant x10 (Devourer)
110 Tyranid Prime (whip/sword, deathspitter, toxin)
175 Tyranid Warrior x5 (deathspitter)

The warriors are geared out for shooting, and while they might draw some S8 shots, that's shots not going at the MC wrecking balls, the real point of the army. The prime is kitted out to be an IC assassin, and the mandatory termagants have devourers for squatting on an objective.

UPDATED LIST

HQ:
Swarmlord - 280
Tyrant Guard x2 (Boneswords) - 150
Tyranid Prime (Sword/Whip, Deathspitter, Toxin) - 110

ELITE:
Hive Guard x2 - 100
Hive Guard x2 - 100

TROOPS:
Tervigon (Stinger, Claws, Adrenal, Toxin, 3 Biomancy) - 235
Termagant x10 (Devourer) - 100
Tyranid Warrior x5 (Deathspitter) - 175

HEAVY SUPPORT:
Trygon Prime (Toxin) - 250

[leeroy1986]

I wouldn't bother upgrading the Tguard they're only there to take shots and the unit is hard enough already.

Primes I use to love now I love Tervifexes so I swapped out every T Prime out for a Tervifex and it rocks.

Warriors Haven't been too hot for me tbh, id put every troop point into Tervifexes personally, then you will easily have points for a flyrant left over

Leeroy

[eugee]

I don't disagree with you leeroy, but I'm not really interested in a Flyrant with this list, especially with a Swarmlord already in. The only biomorphs that I would consider a splurge right now are the tyrant guard boneswords, and that's 30 points that I don't have a better use for elsewhere. The initial list had a second tervifex in it, and it feels like a waste not taking advantage of a 2+ reserve roll to make the army less predictable.

[scorpio]

I think your list is great and should do well. Your tactics are secure and you (most importantly, ) include swarmy! Good luck in future battles!

[Tempests Wrath]

I like your list.

I could see your warriors drawing a bit of fire off the MC's just because of ease in killing them with S8+. Which means they did their job just fine. And if they dont dedicate s8 fire to them.. well good bloody luck getting rid of them. Also considering that massed S5 fire from them (where not overwhelming) is still lethal in its own right.. I can see them as a valid choice here.

Swarmy with 4 Bio powers and popping off 2/turn? that is.. terrifying in its own right.

Is that prime going with your death star or with the warriors to make them BS 4 and soak a couple of ID hits, just out of curiosity.

[eugee]

That's an excellent question on the Prime, and I think my best answer would be, "It depends." I can see times where I'd rather pair him with the Terv so that both of my footslogging MCs have 9 wounds to get through. I can see other times where I'd rather have him enhancing the warriors directly. I'm leaning towards staying with the warriors at the moment, but I could easily just join with the Tervigon if it came down to it or if the warriors suffer a lot of casualties.

I'm also just excited because I have a bunch of warriors just gathering dust from my original 3 battleforces when I first got into Tyranids in 5E!

[fragile]

Aug 15, 2012 16:38:19 GMT eugee said:

I think the Swarmlord is going to draw more fire than you are giving credit to.

I've run SL for 9 games in the last 3 tournaments and 3 wounds was the most SL ever had on him. That was vs. an IG player with lascannons and pie plates. Most players will ignore SL because he really doesnt do much, unless you let him. He doesnt score, cant really shoot you up, and is really slow. Its easier to shoot up the garg screen in your face, or the termagant squads camping objectives or chargings opponents objective, or dealing with the Ymgarls. Only once did an opponent try to kill SL outright and that was a Mephiston charge, (but he forgot LoS).

[Tempests Wrath]

Aug 16, 2012 0:45:59 GMT eugee said:

I'm leaning towards staying with the warriors at the moment, but I could easily just join with the Tervigon if it came down to it or if the warriors suffer a lot of casualties.

Not to draw away from anything else you said, but the prime cant actually join the tervimom unless im reading the IC rules wrong. He -could- join the tyrant guard, the hive guard, the warriors or the devilgants in that list.

"It depends" is still a completely valid answer though.

[eugee]

Aug 16, 2012 2:07:40 GMT Tempests Wrath said:

Aug 16, 2012 0:45:59 GMT eugee said:

I'm leaning towards staying with the warriors at the moment, but I could easily just join with the Tervigon if it came down to it or if the warriors suffer a lot of casualties.

Not to draw away from anything else you said, but the prime cant actually join the tervimom unless im reading the IC rules wrong. He -could- join the tyrant guard, the hive guard, the warriors or the devilgants in that list.

"It depends" is still a completely valid answer though.

Yeah you're right, forgot about that. By default he'll be with the warriors then, but as you say, sometimes it might be more beneficial to have him disappear into a sea of termagants or attach to the hive guard.