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Post by katu06 on Aug 17, 2012 16:17:26 GMT
Hello everyone,
I have finished putting together my first army list and I'm looking for some feedback.
I have never played before, and I'm about to put the order in for my troops. I think, at this point, I'm just looking to make sure I haven't done something really wrong.
My vision for my army is to be really fast across the board and almost entirely CC. I added the Zoanthrope for some range attacks, and the Deathspitter to my Prime because, without it, I would only have one unit that could hit from range. My Prime will be in the warrior group so they have the 3 needed.
My friend will be playing Space Wolves. We are hoping neither army will destroy the other over and over. We are both buying the Battleforce and supplementing if we want.
HQ
Prime x1 - Boneswords, Deathspitter, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs
Elite
Zoanthrope x1 - no upgrades
Troops
Warrior x2 - Boneswords, Adrenal Glands, Scything Talons
Genestealers x8 - Toxin Sacs
Hormagaunts x16 - No upgrades
Comes out to 497 points in the current state. Am I on the right path to get started?
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Post by Tempests Wrath on Aug 17, 2012 17:03:59 GMT
Iv personally found a single zoey to be too unreliable in the low point value lists myself, their default powers requiring: a test, a chance to be Denied, -then- actually hitting the target you might suffer a bit in its use. Also considering all it takes is one lucky missile (space wolves have no issues putting a few of these down range) I dont think you will be happy with it in 500 points.. unless you decide to roll for powers and get lucky or something. Thats always possible. The prime with the warrior group doesnt work quite how you expect either. You need at least 3 standard warriors (with mostly* matching biomorphs) for it to be a unit. Then you can add the prime as a 4th model/IC. The prime isnt a warrior or an 'upgraded' warrior, so it wont count in the 3 minimum, even if you group them. (someone else will explain this better I am sure, I am rather tired so sense I may not make  ) The other note on warriors is that the footslogging warriors are not as fast as you think, or may want them to be. It takes them a good while to reach combat in small games if your opponent is smart, and even longer if you pause to shoot (which isnt a terrible idea with warriors paired with a prime). Stealers can be scary at 500. Or at least i like them. Some people around here dont like genstealers much however, and im a bit of a fanboy. Infiltrating them close to a long range unit to shut it down early (turn 2) can be very useful if you make sure they dont get a bad case of dead before you get them there, try and keep them out of LOS if you can, and in cover if you cant. I dont have much real experience with Slashyarms (Hormagaunts), so I dont know how well they work. To answer the ending question, for a brand new list (once the warrior numbers are resolved) against another brand new player (assuming he doesnt bring cheese) id say your on the right track to start with for a brand new collection, though I think it may take some fleshing out to be "good" and most fights will be an uphill struggle without some list tweaking. |
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Post by milkybarnid on Aug 17, 2012 17:26:16 GMT
You cannot take 2 warriors in a squad, there must be 3. Hormagaunts are nice but in this new edtion you dont want them iin synapse when your about to charge otherwise you only gain 1 attack instead of 2, keep them in synapse whilst running up as they will fail the first ld test they make. Zoanthropes can be iffy at times, all the points Tempest has stated are correct, I believe that zoanthropes need a bit of lucky with the new psychic powers and keep its original powers if you come across AV 14, Warp lance will beat them like scissors through paper. (Provided you pass your psychic test, hit, penetrate and dont get DtW) AP1 is + 2 on the VDC so if you pass all this there is a 50% chance the vehicle explodes. You dont want the warrior squad with guns if you are running upboard as this is affect your armies quickness as to shoot, it cannot run in the shooting phase, you said that the prime will join the warrior squad, this will slow the entire squad down. Otherwise this is a pretty stable list, good luck,  |
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Post by katu06 on Aug 17, 2012 18:19:41 GMT
Really good advice, I appreciate it!
I'm sad that the Battleforce will require me to buy something extra as an HQ or not use my other 2 warriors.
I was worried about the Zoey, and I didn't understand the mechanic with units or the gun. Glad I asked
If I drop the Zoey and reduce some upgrades I feel like I have quite a bit of room. How come I never see lists with gargoyles? They look like they could be used to lead the charge to allow stronger stuff to come behind?
If you say I may be disappointed with CC warriors, are shooty ones better? Or are they just weak all around? They are costing me a ton of points...
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Post by Tempests Wrath on Aug 17, 2012 19:10:38 GMT
It is a bit of a disadvantage of the battleforce, I think most people just pick up a second warrior squad afterwards. This is handy as if you are good at butchering/rebuilding and crafting the basic warrior can be turned into a lot of other models (check the crafting section) if you dont want the extras.
Other people suggest getting a hive tyrant + battleforce. but that might be a little much for a 500 point list (then again.. its not easy to kill).
The particular mechanics with the zoey are.. interesting when you are a new, I tried them myself right off the bat. With so many points of failure a lot of people grab a hive guard brood instead for antitank/anti-specialist units (as an example).
Im not sure why you never see lists with gargoyles. Im reasonably sure that lots of people like them. Iv never used them because I dont actually own any, im working on it as they look to be cheap, fast and effective for their points.
Warriors are only weak to weapons that have S8 or higher.. or ID.. otherwise they are fairly durable for troops. The problem for what you wanted is that they are a little on the slow side, and when you put them up as melee (and dump a lot of points into them) you might just end up not being able to use them at all before they get shot to pieces as they slog their way across the board.
That said melee warriors are still fine to use, and shooty are also fine to use, just make sure you know what you will do with them. If you stop to shoot, they probably wont reach melee. If you dedicate them melee (as i mentioned) they might get shot to pieces (they are probably the biggest thing you have, and with so many points a very good looking target) and kited before doing anything useful (though if they do make it with boneswords god help whatever you hit). A whole lot of conversation can be had on how 'good' or 'weak' they are. I normally keep my own shooty with devourers and ST's to save on points if i need to field them, but that is just me.
I would suggest you seriously consider why you are taking Adrenal Glands on most of your models, look up the reasons most people say you shouldnt, then decide for yourself once you know the pro's and cons and can make an informed decision.
Im trying very hard to -not- tell you what to do, but to offer what experience I do have on your ideas. Just giving you my list for 500 points and telling you 'TAKE THIS OMGODZORZ!!!" isnt very helpful.
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Post by KrakenGenesi on Aug 17, 2012 19:29:22 GMT
Hi Katu06,
I hope you don't think that I am hijacking your topic...I think we share similar questions hehe...I have never played before and am trying to put my first army together. My Army will be different to yours in that my Warriors will sit on the home objective/midfield and the rest will go forth and mush things up! I don't know what my opposition will play...but I too have included a Zoanthrope.
Tervigon ST, CS, Cat
warriors x3 Deathspitters, BStrangler
Genestealers x5 Brood Lord, (ST on BL only)
Ripper Swarm x3
Zoanthrope
498
I am new to gaming and this is the list I am trying to paint up at the moment.
I have read peoples comments about the Zoanthrope and am wondering what to replace it with....and what to do with the spare points...would a Venomthrope be a good choice for the cover save on the Tervigon? Then I could put tunnel swarm on the rippers and have them take overwatch for my Genestealers...........I am sooooooooo sorry if that is all nonsense - I am trying to make the most of what I think I know from reading rule book and codex.
Again Katu06, I really don't want to seem like I am trying to steal your topic, at 500 points we are limited in what models we can take and it seemed silly for me to create a new topic. Hopefully any answers to my woes will help you as well.
Many thanks,
Edd
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Post by katu06 on Aug 17, 2012 20:07:36 GMT
No worries Edd, more knowledge for all can never hurt. Just don't expect my help haha Tempest Wrath - I appreciate the feedback. If I wanted to be told what to do, I'd just copy someone else's list I'd much rather *know* what I'm doing, though it is quite hard having only watched games be played and reading about units. It is hard for me to grasp how things will play out. In regards to my upgrades, I was thinking I could try a few different combos and see how they work in practice before I come up with a "final" upgrade scheme. I'm sure I've read about them somewhere and that guided my decision. But I wont hesitate to double check! New theory: HQ Prime - Boneswords, Deathspitter, Toxin Sacs Fast attack Gargoyles x10 Troops Warriors x3 - Deathspitters, 1 with Barbed Strangler or Venom Cannon (I would need to figure out what is better) Genestealers x8 - Toxin Sacs Hormagaunts x12 Comes out to 483 with venom cannon, so I have some tweaking room. Gargoyles and gaunts move quickly, most die, but are used to distract as Genestealers get into close range to attack, meanwhile my warriors and prime can use long range to help clear the way. They can also stay far enough away from the gaunts so they do extra damage. |
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Post by johnny5isalive on Aug 17, 2012 21:15:09 GMT
hey Katu! starting with the battleforce is a great way to start playing with tyranids IMO so good job there!
looking at your most updated idea it looks like you are therefore going to be "suplimeting" with an additional box of tyranid warriors as well as a unit of gargoyles??
my two pennies worth of advice are that if you get the battleforce box set and need a HQ you could (for the same price as what you would have suplimented) get yourself a tervigon! and you already have termagants from the battleforce??
at 500pts the ability to spawn another 100 ish? points worth of scoring units is amazing! and to get it in to your list you would only need to drop a single hormagant to get the tervagon with Toxin sacs and Catalist! just a thought but it will also put you in better position for going up to 750 points in the future?
hope this gives you another option to consider if nothing else.
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Post by Tempests Wrath on Aug 18, 2012 0:25:53 GMT
New theory: HQ Prime - Boneswords, Deathspitter, Toxin Sacs Fast attack Gargoyles x10 Troops Warriors x3 - Deathspitters, 1 with Barbed Strangler or Venom Cannon (I would need to figure out what is better) Genestealers x8 - Toxin Sacs Hormagaunts x12 Comes out to 483 with venom cannon, so I have some tweaking room. Gargoyles and gaunts move quickly, most die, but are used to distract as Genestealers get into close range to attack, meanwhile my warriors and prime can use long range to help clear the way. They can also stay far enough away from the gaunts so they do extra damage. A fine start. A very fine start at that. You also wont have to deal with the Zoanthrope being a useless floaty thing in your backfield As for Stranglethorn vs Venom... I would say stranglethorn is probably your better bet against marines.. actually while looking at it.. its probably better against nearly everyone.. And its cheaper.. .. What the <please do not swear> GW? But yeah, that large blast is more forgiving, and you only lose a single point of AP which wont help against marines anyway. The only thing to watch for would be vehicles with an av higher than 11/11/10, and those dont show up often in 500 points from my experience (except maybe an assault on black reach space marine starter with a dred). So I could see you doing just fine. *snip* .. my Warriors will sit on the home objective/midfield and the rest will go forth and mush things up! I don't know what my opposition will play...but I too have included a Zoanthrope. Tervigon ST, CS, Cat warriors x3 Deathspitters, BStrangler Genestealers x5 Brood Lord, (ST on BL only) Ripper Swarm x3 Zoanthrope 498 I am new to gaming and this is the list I am trying to paint up at the moment. I have read peoples comments about the Zoanthrope and am wondering what to replace it with....and what to do with the spare points...would a Venomthrope be a good choice for the cover save on the Tervigon? Then I could put tunnel swarm on the rippers and have them take overwatch for my Genestealers...........I am sooooooooo sorry if that is all nonsense - I am trying to make the most of what I think I know from reading rule book and codex. Not nonsense.. For a similar role in what it normally kills to a baseline zoey, a hive guard is wonderful (and cheaper!). Otherwise it depends on what you need. A gaunt squad already in play could also draw fire, take overwatch, or screen for your tervimom (at least I think they can with the new wording of cover in the BRB). A venomthrope could give all kinds of cover even in open ground.. depends what you decide you want. I might avoid having the warriors hold back and sit on an objective. They might not be in range if you do that, and where they are tough against small arms fire, they are expensive. You dont want 20% of your army (and most of your shooting, upgraded shooting at that) dedicated to standing there out of range. Thats what the moms gaunts are for (or prespawned gaunts). The last note.. Rippers are pretty meh. I tried them exactly one time. And never again. I dont want to flat out tell you to not take them and to spend the 30 points on -anything- else. But please dont take them >.> spend the 30 points on -anything- else. I like Broodlord commando's though. After I stopped being an idiot with them they have yet to let me down. And that tervimom will make for an incredibly solid HQ at 500 points (plus, more babies!) |
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Post by katu06 on Aug 18, 2012 3:44:29 GMT
Tempests Wrath - Thanks a lot for all the help! I feel more comfortable going with that lineup than I did the previous one. That Zoey would have sure looked cool floating around though johnny5isalive - Thanks for the idea! I considered going that route, but I mainly want to focus on CC fighting, and the Tervigon / spawning seems to be a different approach. I do think I will get one eventually, but maybe not until we move to more points. OR if my other list does very poorly and I feel like trying something new! |
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Post by KrakenGenesi on Aug 18, 2012 13:33:47 GMT
Thanks Katu06 Tempests Wrath...I have modified the list - stuck a few more bodies on it! Tervigon ST, CS Hive Guard warriors x3 Deathspitters, BStrangler Genestealers x5 Brood Lord Gargoyles x10 501 1 point over I know - I dropped Catalyst on the Tervigon, the Zoanthrope and the rippers and have replaced them with 10 Gargoyles and a Hive Guard. Should I be worried about the Gargoyles falling out of synapse range? and what would you recommend doing power-wise for the Tervigon and the Broodlord? Many thanks for your help guys Inspiration taken from every poster on the thread. |
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Post by katu06 on Aug 18, 2012 14:04:25 GMT
I've been worried about synapse range with gargoyles too. I'm not sure how that will work.
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Post by Tempests Wrath on Aug 18, 2012 16:17:13 GMT
Thanks Katu06 Tempests Wrath...I have modified the list - stuck a few more bodies on it! Tervigon ST, CS Hive Guard warriors x3 Deathspitters, BStrangler Genestealers x5 Brood Lord Gargoyles x10 501 1 point over I know - I dropped Catalyst on the Tervigon, the Zoanthrope and the rippers and have replaced them with 10 Gargoyles and a Hive Guard. Should I be worried about the Gargoyles falling out of synapse range? and what would you recommend doing power-wise for the Tervigon and the Broodlord? Many thanks for your help guys Inspiration taken from every poster on the thread. I keep hoping people smarter than me will start chiming in en mass. Im doing a lot of talking it seems Anyway! I have not ran gargoyles myself, as such im not certain how important, and how easily they could outrun a synapse creature. The most likely time of them getting far ahead is either through terrain or on the charge afaik. But even when 'walking' they still start pulling ahead (12 inch moves vs 6 inch moves). Maybe leave a short (2 model max?) tail for the group as they move forward and start getting near that no synapse dead zone. I think doing that should let you hold onto synapse till turn 3 (depending on fleet/terrain) which -should- be the absolute latest you manage to engage the enemy (id expect to normally hit them in turn 2). With Ld 6, having them out of synapse may be less than fun once the killing starts. This is all just assumption based on someone who hasnt used gargoyles before. It might be best to look up an old topic in general/tactics or if you cant find one (a lazy/quick search didnt get me a result. A very lazy search specifically) post a new topic and ask about gargoyles and synapse at low points games. As for powers? This is entirely personal preference on my part and some people would argue you should try to get something else. The Tervimom I usually change as many powers as I can for Biomancy (alright so this one wont get much arguing) and pray for Iron Arm or Endurance (with warp speed and enfeeble being great consolation prizes). With only the dominion power stock/taken... id take my chances and change it out. The Broodlord I usually run Telekinesis, mostly (depending how much of a **** your opponent is being) because it can use any but 1 power it can actually end up with. (It cant use crush, and if you get vortex you re-roll.) Some people try and argue that they cant use assail (the primaris power you swap crush for, not a great power.. but it is something) because of bs0 or having a roll to hit required. Thats a different topic though. Objuration Mechanicum, or Telekine Dome are what I hope for. With Gate of Infinity being a nice consolidation prize. Anything else is just.. well its something. Dont worry too much about the odds of failing a power with either model (shy of your opponent having boosted anti psyker defenses), they both have LD 10, and you will rather reliably get to cast. How to optimize use of any powers is also another discussion altogether. /end ramble. |
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Post by KrakenGenesi on Aug 18, 2012 21:27:35 GMT
hmmm, I think I will try and slot 10x Gants with Devourers...something like this: Tervigon ST, CS Termagaunts x10 Devourers warriors x3 Deathspitters, BStrangler Genestealers x5 Brood Lord that leaves 10 points to put either TS or AG on my tervigon (opinion). As the list increase in points value I will add a mycetic spore. I share a novices concern about the synapse range that I will get to grips with as I play some games I guess hehe....thanks to Tempests Wrath for the comprehensive answers (which have helped a lot) and to Katu06 for starting a post I have picked a ton of info from , Edd |
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