Battle Report; Grey Knights versus Tyranids (1850)

[halos]

Good day everyone. Once again I have another thrilling installment of 'Halos fights some dudes, toy soldiers are involved.'

This battle report is against the Grey Knights. Now I'm going to put a little bit of a warning here because I do not like Grey Knights as an army, they are extremely powerful, have dreadful models and about half the people at my store not only play Grey Knights they also all play basically the exact same goddam list, as such I might get quite complain-y as I type this up. So, uh, if you don't want to read me complaining about cheese for two pages then you might want to just skim through the pictures or something.

Regardless, I digress and hopefully I can keep the whining to a minimum.

~Army Lists~

Grey Knights

•HQ
-Lord Kaldor Draigo
-Inqusitor Corteaz

•Troops
-10x Paladins ([Justicar/Warding Stave], [2x Psycannon/Halberd], [2xPsycannon/Hammer], [Apothecary/Halberd], [Brotherhood Banner], [2x Halberds], [Hammer])
-1x Paladin (Hammer)

•Elites
-Techmarine (Rad Grenades)

•Fast Attack
-5x Interceptors (Psycannon)
-5x Interceptors (Psycannon)

•Heavy Support
-Dreadnaught (2x TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo)
-Dreadnaught (2x TL Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo)

Tyranids

•HQ
-Hive Tyrant (2x TL Devourers, Armoured Shell, Old Adversary)

•Troops
-15x Termagants (Devourers)
-15x Termagants (Devourers)
-Tervigon (Crushing Claws, Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, Onslaught, Catalyst)
-Tervigon (Crushing Claws, Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, Onslaught, Catalyst)

•Elites
-6x Ymgarl Genestealers
-3x Hive Guard
-2x Zoanthropes

•Heavy Support
-Trygon
-Trygon

~Deployment~

The deployment type was Vanguard Strike, we were as usual forced onto a 4'x4' board due to overcrowding at Vet's night, but at least it makes this deployment type easier to measure out. The mission proved to be Big Guns Never Tire, where you take 3 victory points for any of the 2+D3 objectives (5 in this case) secured at the end of the game in addition to 1 point for every enemy heavy support unit destroyed. As an added caveat Heavy Support units of any type count as scoring in this mission.


High Lord Kaldor Draigo grunts in displeasure; an urgent distress signal of high priority had been detected and relayed to the forces of the Grey Knights. A message speaking cryptically of chittering clawed fiends and psychic beasts spewing warpfire; a full-force daemonic incursion. Having arrived at the beacons source and scoured the area however the Space Marines found nothing but a planet overrun with Tyranids; not a Daemon in sight. The set upon populace hailed the Grey Knights as saviours, but the shining warriors merely turned back towards their drop-ships. They are the mightiest of the Emperors scions, created solely to stave of the assaults of mankinds greatest foe, not some meagre planetary defence force to be called for at the will of however desires aid. However as the Marines trek back to their staging post the full extent of the insidious Tyranid invasion is revealed to them; the way they have come is chock-full of ravening monsters.

The Grey Knights win the roll to go first and deploy as seen in the map above. Corteaz swaps his powers for the Divination ones gaining Forewarning and Foreboding, the latter of which is swapped for the Primaris power Prescience. The GK list is your bog standard Paladin spam, no doubt you've seen it before, a Techmarine is thrown in to make up the 1850 pts as a cheap source of the horrendously unpleasant Rad Grenades. The large Paladin squad sits in the middle of the deployment zone, Draigo at the front to ward any errant shots. The lone Paladin hides on an objective as do the two Interceptor squads (made Scoring via Grand Strategy.) The Dreadnaughts sit tight in reasonable firing positions, ready to grab objectives as the game progresses.



In all honestly I am not expecting this battle to take very long; Nids have very few methods of dealing with Paladins and I have brought none of them. However might as well make the most of it. Tyrant rolls up Leech Life and Iron Arm. The Zoanthropes gain Iron Arm, two Haemorrages (swapped for Smite) and Warp Speed, making them basically worse than just keeping their own powers but oh well. The central Tervigon gains Iron Arm, Smite and Warp Speed whereas the other rolls up Enfeeble, Endurance and Leech Life. Hive Guard deploy out of LoS ready to have a shot at some Dreadnaughts. A nice big ruin along the center line makes for decent cover so most of the Tyranids deploy behind it. The mostly useless Zoanthropes sit up front and center to try and get some early Shadows on the Paladins.

The Ymgarls conceal themselves in the building that the lone Paladin is sat in. A slightly risky play as my opponent can forsee is and block off the terrain with his Interceptors, but against GKs you cannot play it safe.

To avoid getting my derriere kicked in the first turn the Tyranids try and Steal the Initiative, not normally something I'd do during an Objective game but in this case it seemed necessary. Fortune smiles on the Tyranids as my lucky dice comes up a 6 and the 'nids steal the first turn.

~Turn 1~ Victory Points: Grey Knights 9 / Tyranids 8

Tyranids


Moving with deceptive speed the Tyrannic horde rushes forwards, taking the Grey Knights off guard. These beasts may not be Daemons, but they remain enemies of the Imperium and they remain in the way.

The objectives are rolled for; top left is a Scatterfield Generator granting those claiming it +1 cover save and the one at the top right is something equally irrelevant, I believe a Skyfire Nexus? All three remaining objective prove to be Booby-Trapped...

First off psychic powers are cast; everyone who is capable of using Iron Arm does so bumping the Tyrant to T9, the Tervigon to T8 and the Zoeys to T7 majority. The second Tervigon casts Endurance on the Tyrant. The Hive Guard shuffle right into the corner of their ruin, ensuring all their guns are in range of the closest Dreadnaught. Both Tervigon spawn gant broods. The one on the right creating 13 but running out in the process and the other spawning 9. Both fresh gant broods move up as screens, making sure to wrap around to prevent any teleport shunt nonsense from the Interceptors. The Devilgants move up behind the screens as does the Tyrant and green Trygon. The teal Trygon heads off to put some pressure on the left flank, Trygons are basically useless against GKs so he might as well be used to try and draw out that Interceptor squad.

The Hive Guard launch their first salvo, neatly puncturing the Dreadnaught causing three Penetrating hits and forcing the ancient war machine to explode violently gaining not only a VP for killing a Heavy Support unit but also a second VP for First Blood. Go Hive Guard! Everything else is obviously out of range.


The end of the 'nids first turn, only real features of note are the Hive Guard hunkered up against their ruin wall and the distinct lack of Dreadnaught opposite them

Grey Knights


The sudden crump of detonation followed by a rushing blast wave swept across the Paladins, ruffling pennants and purity seals. The sudden and targeted destruction of the Dreadnaught Mortaris raised Draigo's ire; these were not mere beasts. Still their capacity for logical thought was irrelevant, driving his silver hosts onwards Draigo set out to prove this through force.

Corteaz casts both Prescience and Foreboding on the Paladins who then sweep up the center of the field, safe in the knowledge that they are effectively impervious to small arms, which is all the Tyranids have. The green Interceptors leap out of the building, reappearing a short distance away and drawing line of sight into the unprotected gants. The remaining Dreadnaught withdraws marginally and finds a shots into the Zoanthropes through a ruined window.

The Dreadnaught wounds a Zoanthropes, which would normally mean instant-death but in this case that particular Zoey is T7. Half of the black gant squad is messily killed by fire from the Interceptors. The second squad cannot match their success however with only the Psycannon able to draw LoS to the Trygon and none of the psionic charges able to find their mark through the dense ruins.

The Paladins succesfully charge the purple gants, shrugging off the limited Overwatch and predictably wiping the squad with ludicrous ease. They consolidate 6" into the central ruins.


Grey Knight turn 1, just before they charge into the Tyranid gant screen, which you actually cannot see in this photo but is positioned in the large central ruin block.

~Turn 2~ Victory Points: Grey Knights 5 / Tyranids 9

Tyranids


Wading through a sea of leaping, scuttering creatures the Paladins are content with their task. Crushing the head of the last Termagant beneath a cromium boot the fearsome warriors stand, facing headlong down the chambers of hundreds of Tyranid bio-weapons. Standing tall, banner held aloft the greatest warriors of the Imperium prepare to meet the onslaught in honour.

The Ymgarls stay in cover this turn, which is probably for the best as I doubt they can take a full Interceptor squad when striking at I1. Psychic powers are launched again, same as last turn except the Zoanthropes only reach T6 and the Tyrant only T8. The green Tervigon spawns an incredible 17 gants with a roll of 6,6,5. They are placed to flank the Paladins and stop them hitting anything valuable. The Hive Guard move 6" out of the ruins to get the second Dreadnaught juuust into range. The remaining black Termagants head towards the board center and the teal devourer gants move with intent to shoe the Interceptors the meaning of 'superior firepower.' The teal Trygon continues moving forwards through the ruin.

The Hive Guard once again act as an avatar of vengeance against all things with an armour value, exploding yet another Dreadnaught. The teal devourers kill three of the 5 Interceptors, including the Psycannon but, alas, they do not flee. Everything else fires into the Paladins, the Hive Tyrant attempts to use her Precision Shots to gun down the Techmarine with his one wound but Lo,S negates that endeavour. The Zoanthropes throws down a smite also but it achieves nothing. I think maybe a couple of wounds were caused all together and then bounced around the squad with Lo,S. I'll be damned if I was keeping track of all the Paladin's wound shenanigans.

There's no point assaulting as it'd be an auto-lose no matter how you roll the dice so the turn ticks over to the Grey Knights.


Surround the Paladins! Don't charge them though; you'll get absolutely murdered for no gain!

Grey Knights


Interceptor squad Malleus, increasingly wary of the collosal brute wending it's way towards them decide to take matters into their own hands. Leaping from their perch amongst the twisted girders of the ruined manufactorum the heavily armoured warriors appear to twist in mid-air before vanishing entirely in an understated flash of light. A simultaneous pulse of light not 5 meters from the Trygon allows the five marines re-entry into reality, guns blazing and readying their ancient and powerful force swords.

Safe in the knowledge that his Paladins are invincible, but feeling a bit of a pinch when it comes to his other units my opponents moves his Interceptors towards both the Trygon and the teal devourer gants simultaneously. Meanwhile Corteaz, now under the influence of the Shadow in the Warp fails to cast both Foreboding and Prescience but irritatingly does not roll any perils either.

The Interceptor squads knock a wound off the Trygon in shooting but, on the other side of the map, fail to kill any gants.

The teal Interceptors then charge the Trygon, sneaking a lucky sword up through it's fused ribcage and activating their force weapons to instantly slay the monster. At the same time however it crushes four of the space marines with it's wicked talons. The surviving Interceptor heads back to the ruins. The other Interceptors lose one of their member to Overwatch and the last, hammer-armed Grey Knight is overwhelmed by the ferocious termagants, who then consolidate towards the Grey Knights lines. The Paladins multi-charge two gant squads and the Hive Guard, facing and shrugging off a blistering Overwatch before beating down a hideous number of wounds, decimating all involved (except the Paladins of course, they're fine as ever.)


Hey look; a bunch of guys getting murdered for no gain!

~Turn 3~ Victory Points: Grey Knights 5 / Tyranids 9

Tyranids


Tyranicus Praefacto; the Tyranid Hive Tyrant, a monstrous creature feared not only for it's prowess on the battlefield but also it's dextrous control of the organisms under it's direct synaptic influence allowing for the use of surprising and unusual tactics unthinkable to a more human commander. And this particular specimen is a fine example indeed; bellowing in fury as the Termagants which make up the bulk of it's forces are mercilessly crushed, enhanced carapace flushing a vivid blue as excess haemolymph is pumped faster around her collosal frame in preparation for the coming actions. Ponderously at first but rapidly gaining speed the Hive Tyrant rushes towards the implacable wall of Paladins. Predicting the assault and moving to intercept Lord Kaldor Draigo wades through a carpet of living flesh to save the men under his command from the Tyrants formidable assault.

The Ymgarls remain in reserves which is unfortunate, but there is some consolation in that they will show up automatically next turn regardless. The Tyrant casts Iron Arm on herself, boosting her stats by +3 and, more importantly, gaining Eternal Warrior. Endurance is cast on the Hive Guard who, at T6, have the best chance of holding the Paladins for another turn.

The remaining Trygon, scoring in this mission, heads up towards the upper right objective and the devouere armed gants move up the right flank. The green Tervigon moves forwards to get both of the embattled gant broods in range of her toxic aura. The Tyrant sidles sideways to get a charge in on the Paladins; the units in their already will be dead in two turns max and the Paladins need to be held in place until the game ends if the Tyranids stand a chance of winning.

The few teal gants in range throw some devourer shots at the lone Paladin but his armour sees him perfectly safe.

The Tyrant slams into the Paladins. Draigo issues a challenge in order to protect his men from the S9 AP2 hits and the Tyrant, as a single model Character, has no choice but to accept, the two Warlords would be locked in mortal combat. Both heroes knock one wound off each other, putting both at three remaining. The Tyrant passes the test for Daemonbane. (Because of course GKs need a rule which can insta-kill things which are immune to Instant Death, otherwise it just wouldn't be fair now would it -_-) The remaining Paladins smack around almost all of the gants, although the Hive Guard are kept safe thanks to FnP. The remaining gants might have caused a wound or two? I don't remember and it doesn't make a difference anyway.


Things still getting murdered. Also Challenges!

Grey Knights


Blades whirling in slicing arcs, a well-practiced fighting style typically employed against the more monstrous denizens of the Warp it still serves the Grey Knights well in most any combat scenario. Destroying all of the foul Xenos will be a task of little effort.

Corteaz manages to sneak off a Prescience onto the Paladins through the SitW, which pretty much seals the fate of the Tyranid forces in the combat.

No movement or shooting for the Grey Knights. In combat the Paladins, now re-rolling all their hits easily wipe-out the remaining gants and Hive Guard. In the challenge however the Hive Tyrant manages to sneak two crushing blows through Draigo's guard, dealing two wounds too the indomitable hero whilst taking no damage in return.

~Turn 4~ Victory Points: Grey Knights 1 / Tyranids 16

Tyranids


The last surviving member of Interceptor Squad Malleus, Brother Julian, crouching behind cover and out of sight in the lower levels of the manufactorum ruins, catches a furtive movement through his helm's sensors. A grating in the floor, half buried in rubble, is slowly being pulled aside. Taking careful aim with his Stormbolter and twisting the activating ring of his Nemesis Hammer the Space Marine advances cautiously towards the grille, which suddenly flies open, revealing a dark tunnel beyond, entirely empty. Curious and unnerved Julian turns to back away at the same moment a loathsome clawed shape leaps from the twisted catwalk above, and another lunges from behind a pile of rusted machinery, and another, and yet again another. The Ymgarls had been stalking their preys taste for upwards of 20 minutes and had now begun their strike.

The Ymgarls show up automatically, surrounding the unfortunate Interceptor. Hive Tyrant casts Iron Arm again up to T8. She also gain FnP from the Tervigon.

Both Tervigon move as far backwards as possible whilst still being in range of their objectives. The Trygon rushes through the crumbling walls to claim another. The remaining devourer gants pile together to get within range of the lone Paladin.

45 devourer shots prove just enough to kill one Paladin.

The Ymgarls charge the remaining Interceptor, evading both the Overwatch and his clumsy hammerblows before striking him down with rending claws. In combat Draigo, now with re-rolls from his unoccupied cohorts (taken on his invulnerable saves obviously) stays safe against the Hive Tyrants onslaught and manages to cause a wound in return, but again Deamonbane does not activate.

~End Game~

We did technically continue playing through til the end of Turn 5, but with only one unit left on the Grey Knights side it does not make for particularly exciting reading. The Ymgarls charge the Paladins to deny Draigo his re-rolls but to no end as he remains sturdy on his last wound. The gants head towards the last unclaimed objective and both Tervigons and the Trygon head as far away from the Paladins as possible whilst still remaining in range of their objectives should the Tyrant fall.

Final scores are totalled to:

Tyranids: 19 Victory Points
-5x Primary Objectives
-4x Secondary Objectives (First Blood, Linebreaker, 2x Heavy Support units destroyed)

Grey Knights: 1 Victory Point
-1x Primary Objective (Heavy Support unit destroyed)



I have to admit this game was not particularly enjoyable, although I managed to win it was not particularly satisfying. Especially with not killing even a single model from my opponents main unit. Frankly a squad like that, where the only way to win the game is to not engage it en-masse at all, and indeed some armies have absolutely no hope of defeating is terrible game design. In this case even if I had charged that Paladin squad with my entire army, which I would certainly have been capable of during the second turn; a full 1850 (+spawned gants) Tyranid army would have lost to a single squad. Absolute nonsense.

Also the Challenge mechanic doesn't seem to work? As was seen here the Hive Tyrant held up the entire 1000+ point Paladin squad effectively single-handedly for 5 combat rounds just because Draigo issued a challenge and they got stuck. Not to mention the fluff problems; I guess Draigo's Paladins just stand around whilst he gets attacked by a giant monster? I wouldn't think honorable single-combat is really that high on peoples minds when it comes to Tyranids but whatever.

So, on the plus side I did manage to beat Draigowing, but on the otherhand I did it by ignoring the actual important part of said wing. Which makes for a a boring game for me, no doubt a boring game for my opponent and most definantly a boring game for the spectators.

Paladins; not so cool you guys.

Anyway next report should hopefully be a tad more interesting, I won't right up anymore Paladin spam ones I don't think as they either end up in a cheese-based massacre or a dull meat grinder like this one. Do comment as usual and I shall endeavour to find a more exciting match up for next time.

Thanks for reading folks.

[kurbutti]

Thanks for the BR; as good as ever. You did good. Challenging the Tyrant was stupid though. What Mastery Level was the highest in that unit? Would there have been any chance to get Maledictions in?

[halos]

I think he challenged to stop his Paladins being insta-killed.

Had it been me stuck in that situation I would perhaps have Heroically Intervened with a Hammer-Paladin, when he gets killed just refuse any other challenges and smack the Tyrant down with multiple attacks.

Corteaz is level 2/3 as is Draigo. I think the squad itself counts as leve 1 as well. Also the one turn where Enfeeble might have made a difference (when they charged the gants/Hive Guard) they were still within the 12" range of the Dreadnaughts Reinforced Aegis, meaning I'd be casting as Ld6 (or 5? I can't remember if they stack or not.) Ultimately I'd prefer the Tyrant having FnP and regen than a somewhat weaker Paladins, if the Zoeys had rolled up Enfeeble too then I would probably have attempted it mind.

[swarm492]

Great battle rep and great job vs the knights, I haven't had the opportunity to face them yet and to be honest I'm not really looking for it. Dont get me wrong I like a challenge.. from my opponent, not his dex.

[scorpio]

A great bat rep as usual, always enjoy reading them. Really like the format with pictures and love the narrations bits, you have a real imagination! you also seem to have a great list and a good strategy to beat grey knights by that scale. Another victory for the hive!

[roxor08]

Man,

Love the bat reps. Keep it up. Fortunately, I don't have to play against any said Draigowing armies, so I'm glad and yet feel your pain. Games are meant to played for fun, and in some instances (tournaments) to win, and you just proved that the ever invincible Draigowing army was not as tough as it may seem to beat

[vecuu]

You played that well. Congrats on the win.

[Deleted]

Excellent as always, good on you for munching their cheesy bones!

[Jabberwocky]

Another good batrep.

I like the challenge mechanic. Imagine you have a single fighter in combat against 10. The 10 men may have 10x the attacks but they will get in eachothers way and will risk hurting eachother. In the case of Draigowing, they will have immense confidence in their leader. They will watch in awe as he slays (or tries to) this beast.

[coredump]

Halos: I think I disagree with your assessment of GK. I give GW some slack, they didn't make a codex called Draigowing; it is the players choice to latch onto that 'superunit' and try and use it like an 'I win' button.

Sure it is a super tough unit, but it has some very strong weaknesses; which you exploited to win.

That player decided to put more than half of his army into one, slow, unit. Not always the best choice; and one with an inherrent risk of being in the wrong place; or getting tarpitted.
For me it would be a really fun game, I like it when a player thinks he will roll you with a net list... and gets thrashed *because* of that list.


Couple of points:
Make sure you *really* understand how wound allocation works, and how it interacts with LOS. It seems odd that he never lost a model; you didn't really hit him with much, so it is possible....

IMO, your only 'mistake' was when he was able to multi-assault. your gaunts and HGuard.
You would have been better off by 'surrounding' the front arc of the paladins with a single unit of gaunts. This way he can't Move forward, if he shoots the gaunts, he may kill them all and not be able to charge; if he shoots another unit, they get a cover save, and can't charge.

If you had wanted to take out the Paladin squad....
Hit it with the HT/Terv/Terv/maybe the Trygons; try and get the Banner bearer in base contact, stay out of base with the ICs.
This puts you into base with 3 Paladins.
Then assault with gaunts into base wth the rest of the paladins.

Any paladins (or ICs) in base with the gaunts, have to attack the gaunts... keeping the TMCs safe.

With Smash Attack, your attacks will ID the paladins,and ignore any FnP. 10-15 attacks, should get rid of about half of the paladins...




Do this for each group of wounds in the wound pool

All saves the same: Roll all saves, Allocate Unsaved Wound, LOS or not, roll FnP (If all models have the same FnP, you can roll all FnP when you roll the saves)

Mixed saves: Allocate Wound, LOS or not, roll saves, roll FnP...

The key is that LOS triggers immediately on the *allocation*.

So *no* taking a save and then LOS

[halos]

Aug 16, 2012 20:40:45 GMT coredump said:

Halos: I think I disagree with your assessment of GK. I give GW some slack, they didn't make a codex called Draigowing; it is the players choice to latch onto that 'superunit' and try and use it like an 'I win' button.

Sure it is a super tough unit, but it has some very strong weaknesses; which you exploited to win.

That player decided to put more than half of his army into one, slow, unit. Not always the best choice; and one with an inherrent risk of being in the wrong place; or getting tarpitted.
For me it would be a really fun game, I like it when a player thinks he will roll you with a net list... and gets thrashed *because* of that list.

Really I would like to agree with you here, and no doubt if I wasn't playing Tyranids I would do; a lot of other armies with easier access to AP2/S8+ weaponry would obviously find this list a lot more maneagable.

On the other hand I think it is very difficult to make a bad GKs list; even if you just throw things together from the codex the vast majority are not only still good but also superior to over armies.

Aug 16, 2012 20:40:45 GMT coredump said:

Make sure you *really* understand how wound allocation works, and how it interacts with LOS. It seems odd that he never lost a model; you didn't really hit him with much, so it is possible....

As far as I'm aware it takes ~80 wounds to kill one Paladin (assuming a S <8 of course) seen as you have to bypass a 2+ save and 5+ FnP, as well as the GK player being able to allocate any recieved wounds to as-of-yet unwounded models via Lo,S. But, as you say, I did not particularly focus no the Paladins on account of their ludicrous survivability, so not killing any is not unsurprising, just irritating.

Aug 16, 2012 20:40:45 GMT coredump said:

IMO, your only 'mistake' was when he was able to multi-assault. your gaunts and HGuard.
You would have been better off by 'surrounding' the front arc of the paladins with a single unit of gaunts. This way he can't Move forward, if he shoots the gaunts, he may kill them all and not be able to charge; if he shoots another unit, they get a cover save, and can't charge.

100% agree with this, my original plan was to do just this but I did not expect him to a) attempt a first turn charge into terrain and b) actually make said charge which, of course, was my own fault but it rather limited the space I had to stall him. I could definantly have done it better though, no question.

Aug 16, 2012 20:40:45 GMT coredump said:

If you had wanted to take out the Paladin squad....
Hit it with the HT/Terv/Terv/maybe the Trygons; try and get the Banner bearer in base contact, stay out of base with the ICs.
This puts you into base with 3 Paladins.
Then assault with gaunts into base wth the rest of the paladins.

Any paladins (or ICs) in base with the gaunts, have to attack the gaunts... keeping the TMCs safe.

With Smash Attack, your attacks will ID the paladins,and ignore any FnP. 10-15 attacks, should get rid of about half of the paladins...

So the idea is the Paladins cannot reach the MCs with their I6 consolidation move as their are gants in the way? I suppose it could work, but the MCs strike at I1 (in this case anyway) so the either get spiked by an I6/4 force weapon before hitting anything, or kill some Paladins and then get smushed by the Hammer, depending on which Paladin you charge first. Not to mention Overwatch could readily kill a charging MC if Foreboding is in play. Plus Challenges can take one of the MCs out of the equation.

I don't know, seems like something that should work on paper, would have to try it in a few games I suppose.

Aug 16, 2012 20:40:45 GMT coredump said:

Do this for each group of wounds in the wound pool

All saves the same: Roll all saves, Allocate Unsaved Wound, LOS or not, roll FnP (If all models have the same FnP, you can roll all FnP when you roll the saves)

Mixed saves: Allocate Wound, LOS or not, roll saves, roll FnP...

The key is that LOS triggers immediately on the *allocation*.

So *no* taking a save and then LOS

But don't all Paladins have the same save? 2+? In which case you roll the save and then Lo,S? Or do you count invulnerable saves in the count of 'saves the same' in which case Draigo, Ward Stave guy and Techmarine etc. would be in different groups to the rest?

Thanks for all the comments everyone, and sorry for bugging you for responses Coredump ;P

[maugrim]

Aug 16, 2012 20:59:16 GMT halos said:

As far as I'm aware it takes ~80 wounds to kill one Paladin (assuming a S <8 of course) seen as you have to bypass a 2+ save and 5+ FnP, as well as the GK player being able to allocate any recieved wounds to as-of-yet unwounded models via Lo,S.

So a 1 in 6 chance to get a wound through, then 4 in 6 to affect him, then 3 in 6 to actually affect the guy at the front (instead of another guy).

So a 12% chance to get a wound through, of which 6% of that your opponent can place it (if its going to a Paladin) or 10% of them if they're going to the Techmarine (which is unlikely because he'd die taking it since its already failed the saving throw) or Draigo (which is also unlikely unless you've got no Str 8 because its better to save Draigo's wounds for when they're needed).

Do you really need 80 wounds to get through? 80 Wounds dealt mean with the saves you've got 9.6 Unsaved. 4 Unsaved would mean the front guy likely has already died (50% of them wouldn't LoS!), and that's still 2 other wounds already dealt elsewhere in the squad. Double that to 8 and you've probably killed 2, plus 4 wounds spread around. Another 2 and you may have only killed 2, but likely have caused wounds on everybody else in the squad already. So 80 wounds would have killed at least 2, and weakened the rest of the squad. 34 wounds is enough to do 4 Unsaved, which should be enough to kill the closest Paladin (plus do 2 other Unsaved somewhere else in the squad).

[Aside: If he's LoS!ing to Draigo on that IC version of 2+ - he's only got 4 wounds, so a canny player facing a likely challenge later shouldn't stack more than 2 on him.]

So ~113 Bolter shots from Marines should do 34 Wounds. Or 136 Devourer shots for us. So 45 Devilgaunts. Which for what the Draigowing costs point wise we should be able to field ~120? So if we can get them all into range in one turn - would deal 90 wounds per turn of shooting. Of course, count on losing at least 1 unit per turn to the Wing's shooting and assault (but then we'd get Overwatch...) And that's not dealing with taking from the direction the shots are coming from, nor Pref Enemy from the Tyrant, etc, etc. So many issues, so little time...

[maugrim]

Aug 16, 2012 20:59:16 GMT halos said:

I suppose it could work, but the MCs strike at I1 (in this case anyway) so the either get spiked by an I6/4 force weapon before hitting anything, or kill some Paladins and then get smushed by the Hammer, depending on which Paladin you charge first. Not to mention Overwatch could readily kill a charging MC if Foreboding is in play. Plus Challenges can take one of the MCs out of the equation.

Have the MCs challenge (if they can). If he accepts - it limits him to one opponent attempting to hit/kill the MC - and it isn't likely the one with a Hammer. If he doesn't, it lets you reduce his combatants by one.

[fragile]

Halos, I think you fret too much with GK. With the change to Fearless assault wounds, that army is ridiculously easy to beat now. The key to that army is to ignore the Paladins, (which you pretty much did). Tarpit them with gaunts and then kill the rest of his army. Once he is down to his Paladin squad, they will auto lose most any objective based game. Single massive deathstar units like that are not half the threat that quick units are anymore.

[coredump]

Really I would like to agree with you here, and no doubt if I wasn't playing Tyranids I would do; a lot of other armies with easier access to AP2/S8+ weaponry would obviously find this list a lot more maneagable.

Oh no, they are a (please do not swear) for just about every army. They are extremely resilient. I think their biggest weakness is their speed, Nids are pretty well set up to stall them. (which you did very well.)

Which is the trade off for DWing. You get one tough as nails unit, but it is only *one* unit, has way subpar shooting (for the points), and is pretty easy to stall.

As far as I'm aware it takes ~80 wounds to kill one Paladin (assuming a S <8 of course) seen as you have to bypass a 2+ save and 5+ FnP, as well as the GK player being able to allocate any recieved wounds to as-of-yet unwounded models via Lo,S.

I agree, they are particularly well suited for the current Allocation rules/LOS. But assuming a Paladin is the closest model, it can only LOS on a 4+

But don't all Paladins have the same save? 2+? In which case you roll the save and then Lo,S? Or do you count invulnerable saves in the count of 'saves the same' in which case Draigo, Ward Stave guy and Techmarine etc. would be in different groups to the rest?

The invuln save would only matter if the attacks were AP2, or ignored armor. (It is also not explicitly stated when FnP is rolled)

In this case, assuming a paladin was the closest model, and 20 devilgaunts with PE:
60 shots, 35 hits, 21 wounds, 4 missed saves, 2 missed LOS rolls.
Now need to make 2 FnP rolls.

So yeah, it is even worse than I realized... 2+, 4+, 5+... is a lot of saves, it takes 18 wounds to land one on the paladin. It makes tons of sense that you never killed any, especially with fleshborers.

Which is why you need either to stall them, or use a *lot* of S8+ attacks.

100% agree with this, my original plan was to do just this but I did not expect him to a) attempt a first turn charge into terrain and b) actually make said charge which, of course, was my own fault but it rather limited the space I had to stall him.

It is easy for me to armchair QB after the fact, and I didn't see the actual board.

I was not referring to his initial turn 1 charge. but the one after that.
Turn one the Palys moved towards you, on turn two is when you wanted to wrap around the palys, even if it means a Run instead of shooting with one brood. Then try and keep the other broods as far back as you can to avoid a multi assault.

So the idea is the Paladins cannot reach the MCs with their I6 consolidation move as their are gants in the way? I suppose it could work, but the MCs strike at I1 (in this case anyway) so the either get spiked by an I6/4 force weapon before hitting anything, or kill some Paladins and then get smushed by the Hammer, depending on which Paladin you charge first. Not to mention Overwatch could readily kill a charging MC if Foreboding is in play. Plus Challenges can take one of the MCs out of the equation.

To be clear, I think stalling is better than trying to kill them.

You charge with the gaunts, and ideally get into base with every other model.
Yes, they can still Force Weapon the TMCs, but with only 1 paladin on each TMC (ideally), it will be pretty hard to actually get a wound on them.
It is a risk, but you can't deal with DWing without risk.

Also, it is important which models the TMCs are in base with, since only they can attack the TMC, but also because the TMCs go on their own init step, so the paladin in base is the closest model. (Bye bye B Banner)